The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    Hello Reniaa,

    Thanks for responding. But you did not tell provide the WTS position on who these "many false prophets" are? If you're saying that to be a false prophet you must perform "great signs and miracles," then who are the many that are false prophesying and performing great signs and miracles? (personally, I read Matt. 24:11, 24 to not require all false prophets to perform signs and miracles, but that's a matter of interpretation; unlike the WTS, I'm willing to admit that my reading isn't necessarily the only proper one).

    Feel free to respond to my thread on the subject:

  • coffee_black

    authoritythe Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

    The wt does not build up... as many here can attest to. The authority to build up is not at all the same as authority over one's relationship with God. All those who belong to Christ have the authority to build up... you don't have to have an organization to do that. You do that by directing others to Christ.

    Jesus said "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Matt 11: 28-30 What a contrast to the wt society.

    Those who belong to Christ are slaves of Christ....not shepherds. There is only 1 Shepherd...and that is Christ. The sheep belong to Him.

    Jesus said "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11

    Even if all of your reasoning was true... the wt does not represent God on earth. Their record does not support such a claim. At all.


  • Pistoff

    brotherdan said:

    Ok, no Paul was not talking about the Bible as we know it today. But at the time of this writing the church had the gospels and letters of Paul. They also had the entire Old Testament.

    The gospels did NOT exist when Paul wrote the letters asribed to him by scholars. The Gospels were written after Paul lived and after the Corinthians.

    Brotherdan, why does Paul never mention Jesus miracles, or his teachings?

    No bible literalist has been able to give me an answer to this question.


  • designs

    'Paul' and the Jew of the gospels wouldn't recognize each other.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Debator: The ones that spoke to God directly indeed is how come we have the Bible itself to read. These were inspired. The rest of God's people where spirit directed. The Bible itself is the sword of the spirit so using the bible is to be directed by the spirit. We are Jehovah's people in this time. No other group follows Jehovah.

    With all due respect this is hogwash. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, inspiration is "divine guidance or influence exerted directly on the mind and soul." You cannot distinguish between inspiration and "spirit directed." If God directs by the Spirit, it's inspiration. No amount of double talk will change this. You also state that "No other group follows Jehovah." Upon what do you base this claim?

    Have you ever been to a Seventh Day Adventist church? They believe they are following the dictates of Jehovah by worshiping on the seventh day of the week. Ellen White was said to have had actual visitations from the unseen world directing her to worship on Saturday. In the opinion of her followers, no other group follows God except for the Adventists. Alexander Campbell believed that he (and others) restored the church of God by a deep study of the Bible's precepts. One theologian who agreed said, "The principles by which Alexander Campbell and his associates lived, appear to me to be indistinguishable from the principles of primitive and apostolic Christianity." (Dr. F.F. Bruce, 1910-1990)

    Another theologian (not a follower of Mr. Campbell), speaking on the merits of inspiration, said: "Opinions, creeds invented by uninspired men, and doctrines originated in schools of divinity, all vanish like the morning dew -- all sink into insignificance when compared with a message direct from heaven. Such a message shines upon the understanding like the splendors of the noon-day sun; it whispers in the ears of mortals, saying, 'This is the way, walk ye in it.'" Another wrote: "Either revelation itself is deficient, or else the fault is in mankind. But to say revelation is deficient would be to charge God foolishly; God forbid; the fault must be in man."

    Do you think that all the other religions of sectarian Christianity believe they are wrong? No. Do you think they believe they are not following Jehovah? Not a chance!

    To argue that the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's ministers because no other church teaches (in your opinion) the truth is treading on thin ice. Having read the New Testament scriptures, I see nothing authorizing a change in the sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. (I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist, however). I also read that, following baptism, one must have the Holy Spirit conferred upon him through the laying on of hands. Do the Jehovah's Witnesses do this?

    On an Internet site, Matt Slick says: "The true church is not an organization, not a series of buildings, but the body of true believers. The true church consists of those who are regenerate; that is, it consists of those who are the true Christians." Of course Slick and his followers get to determine who these "Christians" really are and, more importantly, who they aren't.

    So, really, your statement that the Jehovah's Witnesses must be God's Kingdom on Earth because, well, no other church teaches what you believe to be "the truth." The argument is circular. The Jehovah's Witnesses determine what the truth is and, since no one else teaches it, they must be the true church on Earth! The same template can be used with any other church, as we've seen. But it doesn't take everything into account.

    The JW concept of Armegeddon is silly by today's standards. At the time Russell and Rutherford formed the foundational doctrines of the church, Judah had not gathered to its ancestral homelands. So they had to do an interpretational end run around it by giving all the scriptures that referred to Judah and Jerusalem "spiritual" meanings (since they were sure Armegeddon was right around the corner). Jerusalem became the church and Armegeddon was changed to mean a worldwide conflict. Meanwhile, the scriptures were clear. Jerusalem was NOT the church; it was the "city where David dwelt." When Israel was established in 1948, it became clear that Armegeddon was literal. It was to be a war against Judah and Jerusalem, and it had NOTHING to do with the Jehovah's Witnesses or their publishing concerns.

    But the JW leadership did not correct their scriptural exegesis. Instead, they clung to it, despite it being an obvious error! There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the JW concept of Armegeddon is even remotely correct. To cling to it, you have to ignore entire chapters in the Bible and you have to give spiritual interpretations to prophecies that everywhere else are literal! When Armegeddon happens, it won't be here, but in Israel. When Jesus returns, he will do so in Jerusalem, at the Mount of Olives. Both Jews and early Christians understood this was a messianic prophecy, and that it was not at all spiritual, but literal. So if the JWs have missed this, it throws their entire eschatology off. Using Debator's logic, then, the Jehovah's Witnesses can't possibly be Jehovah's organization!

  • bennyk

    debator writes: "Hi bennyk

    This is already covered calling yourself a prophet isn't the issue. The creteria as set out by all of deut 18 is to claim to speak words directly from God to say you are inspired literally. It is not something people can put on you or can read into badly worded uininspired wt's. The person has to be claiming they can speak/communicate with/talk with/get visions from God himself. Witnesses have never claimed this but trying to build this from wt's trying to read it into them is just being dishonest.

    Any witness can tell we know none of us have been inspired because that stopped with the apostles This is an across the board understanding all our people know."

    my response:

    Calling yourself a prophet is the issue. Let's consider those scriptures. "18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of Jehovah does not take place or come true, that is a message Jehovah has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." (Deuteronomy 18:18-22)

    Your claim "The person has to be claiming they can speak/communicate with/talk with/get visions from God himself" is erroneous. Verses 18 & 19 declare that the promised Messiah will indeed be inspired. Verse 20 indicates that others who deceptively claim to 'speak in [His] name anything [He has] not commanded them to say' are to be put to death. This would be true of any prophet --even an inspired one -- who preaches as God's message something He did not command. Verse 22 indicates that the false teachings promulgated as "Truth" by the Watch Tower Society for decades in millions of copies are not a message from Jehovah, thus something not commanded by the "God of truth". The Society stands condemned.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep


    I have recently had the awake intro thrown at me by others as well. Claiming it as some sort of declaration of inspiration when it is clearly just badly put grammer concerning already written bible promises from Jehovah of a peaceful world from Isaiah and Psalms etc.

    If this is merely a case of badly put grammar, could you please tell us in which language editions we can find it in the 'correct' grammar?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    So how would you respond to my mom? She is trying to "save' me right now from leaving the org. I have to word it in a way that could cause her to see the fallicy in this argument.

    Can you think of questions you can ask about the passage that can put her in a position that causes her to see the fallacy in this argument.

    You don't 'win' anything with a JW until they tell you they are wrong. It just doesn't work the other way around.



  • debator

    Hi cold steel

    What modern Dictionaries say is not the issue. The point here is the bible meaning of "inspiration" any Jew or Christian knows the Bible books/letters are special cases of this and why no other books/letters written at those times are consider inspired. This specific ability stopped with the apostles. If you start blurring it, why would we even use the Bible? You are deconstructing the Bible by denying that inspiration can specifically happen. And that words can be inspired/straight from God and this is what Deut 18 is refering too, Jesus the messiah would have this specifically and hense why we have 4 gospels written about what he spoke to us.

    As for Sabbath this is a side issue but Sabbaths ended with Jesus because he is fulfillment of the sabbath he is our Lord of the sabbath.

    Mark 2:28
    So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

    Luke 6:4-5 (New International Version)

    4 He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." 5 Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

    I am not arguing that every religion believes they are the one, it simply goes with the territory but being God's people means knowing him and Jesus his son and doing God's will. It is not enough just to say you are. Christian religions use a 1000 scriptures to do with God's name but they still don't use it.

    Zechariah 13:9
    This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'Jehovah is our God.' "

    I am a Jehovah's witness because I looked at all these and thankfully saw the truth of the Bible that God has granted them. Are they perfect? no (but then no one could be accept Jesus) Do they still make mistakes? yes, but they turn to God's word the Bible for correction and setting things straight not man-made doctrines or proof texting scriptures taken out of harmony with the bible to support their unbiblical ideas .

    When I compare witnesses with other Christian religions I see a fragmentmented Christendom with a few truths amidst a load of man-made doctrines. Then I see witnesses with massive simple and clear bible truths, a hard-working people simply trying to do Jehovah's will.

  • debator

    Hi bennyk

    If simply calling yourself a prophet was the issue Deut !8:18 wouldn't clarify that they are claiming to speak the words from God himself. This is also doesn't put impossible ask on Bible prophets for their every word to be inspired. Right back to the beginning of this debate we saw Nathan the prophet made a mistake predicting in his own words something wrong but when he did Get Jehovah's words and correction this was cleared up but according to you he should have been condemned.

Share this