The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • debator

    HI brotherdan

    Your examples are wrong. you said....

    1. They predicted future events that didn't come true (all be it from their twisting of the scriptures) corrected to...has to claim told them directly by God

    2. They spoke in God's name words that God did not say....corrected too..has to claim told them directly by God.

    otherwise Your original position will make it impossible for us to use the bible prophecies and bible chronology to keep watch without fear of making mistakes and getting condemned for it.

    How can we use bible prophecy and chronology making decenment/understanding calls from them as Jesus tells us too if we fear being condemned as false prophets if we do?

    Matthew 24:15
    —let the reader understand—

    Mark 13:14

    let the reader understand—

  • coffee_black

    Witnesses have never claimed to be inspired.

    But they do claim to be "Spirit directed" Would you please explain the difference? They also claim to to be "God's only Channel of Communication". Who were they "communicating" with when they got all the "new light" that they have since had to change?


    Truth doesn't change. If it has to change, it wasn't true to begin with. If it wasn't true to begin with, then it did not come from God.

  • debator

    Hi coffee black

    Do you think every single Jew and every single Christian were inspired? and able to do prophecies speak with God directly?

    That is the difference. The ones that spoke to God directly indeed is how come we have the Bible itself to read. These were inspired.

    The rest of God's people where spirit directed. The Bible itself is the sword of the spirit so using the bible is to be directed by the spirit.

    We are Jehovah's people in this time. No other group follows Jehovah.

    Zechariah 13:9
    This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'Jehovah is our God.' "

  • coffee_black

    The information the wt teaches comes from a group who claims that they are the FDS. Jws have to follow what the FDS teaches. The FDS claims to be Spirit Directed and God's only Channel of Communication. Much of what they teach has changed since they claim to have been chosen to represent God on earth (1918/19 depending on what publication you reference) God doesn't change his mind. Requiring jws to change their beliefs and follow THEM in their inconsistent teachings does not prove that God had anything to do with them.

    Under the old covanent Jews had the Law, priesthood and the prophets. Under the new covanent we have Jesus...who said that the Holy Spirit would be our teacher and the Law would be written on our hearts. The Law is no longer external, enforced by humans... but Internal, administered by a relationship with Christ.

    Following a group of fickle men gets you nowhere with God. When you stand befor your Creator, membership in an organization counts for nothing. Your relationship with Christ counts for everything.


  • debator

    Hi coffee black

    The greek scriptures clearly set out an organised structured christian people with all sorts of jobs/gifts including leadership as part of making it function and work.

    Romans 12:8
    if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

    How we function as a ordered group supporting each other including specifically our shepherds is very much a bible issue concerning ourselves not to be ignored.

    Hebrews 13:17
    Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

    Ignoring these instructions and directions for our people is foolishness at best, being willfully blind at worst.

  • designs

    The Jonah and Nineveh story is about universalism, they never were asked to become jews, just be good. Great allegory.

    Do a little good each, it will be alright.

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    Note how the WTS followers concoct an incredibly narrow definition of "prophet" in an effort to absolve the WTS of any accountability for its indiscreet incorrect predictions.

    This WTS definition excuses hucksters like Hal Lindsey (Late Great Planet Earth) and Ed Whisenant (88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988) from being false prophets because those guys tie their predictions to Daniel, Revelation, etc. Heck, even David Koresh based his predictions on the Bible. But none of these clowns are false prophets in Watchtower-land!

    But this creates a problem. Jesus predicted that there would be "many false prophets" during The Last Days. If these really are The Last Days, then who are the "many false prophets" that Jesus predicted would be around? I posted a thread on this, but can't seem to get the WTS/JW take on the matter:

    Is the WTS saying that Jesus was wrong?

  • coffee_black


    Please give me a single time that Jesus said to look to other humans to govern their relationship with God. He taught that the only way to the Father is through Him and Him alone. He taught his disciples to lead others about Him, and He would send the Holy Spirit to teach them. Where does Christ speak of an organization or a Governing body? Christ's followers are united by Holy Spirit... not by a group of men. The organization cannot give salvation, and the organization cannot take it away.

    Jesus warned: "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matt:23:8

    Paul warned about looking to men and becoming followers of men. "What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?" 1 Cor 1: 12, 13 (no...but jws are now baptized in the name of the organization! what do you think Christ thinks of that, when He instructed to baptize "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?)

    It is a human desire to look to man for answers... look at the Nation of Isreal who wanted a human King, when they already had the King of the universe as King.... Where did that choice get them? When one has a one on one relationship with Christ, why would one settle for membership in a human organization. Whose authority would you choose... Christ or man?

    The wt has not proven in any way that they were chosen to represent God on earth. Their history proves quite the oposite. So I don't look to them for Spiritual leadership, because their history does not prove them to be who they claim to be.


  • debator

    Hi Olin

    Spinning this around doesn't change the scriptures. Many of these you quote did claim to have direct contact with God even if they used the bible as well. But if we are being particular to this current time they will be deceiving people with apparent signs and miracles as well.

    Matthew 24:24
    For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

    It also shows some will claim to be Messiah/Christ also.

    Whichever way you twist and turn Olin, witnesses simply don't fit the creteria you would put on them.

    The Witnesses take on all these like Davis Koresh among others is simple.

    1 Corinthians 5:13
    God will judge those outside.

    We will only repeat what we know from the Bible that if anyone claims to directly speak to Jehovah himself falsely and get inspiration from God directly they are false prophets.

  • debator

    Hi Black Coffee

    The Bible isn't a pick'n'mix Where you choose the bits you like and ignore the rest. Also scriptures don't cancel each other out. You have to find ways to harmonise it all and that includes our instructions to have shepherds that direct us under Jesus our way to his father Jehovah our Almighty God.

    Jesus gave them authority like his father gave him authority.

    2 Corinthians 10:8
    For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

    Our using shepherds/overseers was established the minute Jesus left and we will have shepherds looking after the flock until Armageddon. The scriptures make it clear we choose elders and overseers from among ourselves and not some celestial hand pointing down from heaven.

    1 Timothy 3:1
    [ Overseers and Deacons ] Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task.

    1 Timothy 3:2
    Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

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