Regarding MAD APOSTATE
It's no good trying to take the moral high ground with me brother. Where have I shown the slighest sympathy for ANYONE hurting ANYONE online???
Why don't you answer what I have put to you? Did you read what I said? Of course Mad Apostate's attack wasn't excusable but the fact is that in the real world that will happen. I've probably been attacked more often by internet trolls and nutters than most but so what? It's a fact of life on the nett. Simons place is actually about as mild as reality gets in cyber space.
Please read what i have said again and answer me instead of trying to score points. This thread has gone beyond that. Why not tell me what you think of what I acctually advised you instead of taking it as some kind of 'side taking' exercise. I am trying to help this lost soul as much as you are. If you listen to me it may save a lot of hurt or this kind of thing blowing up again and again. My advise is that you deal with the cause rather than the symptom. I say that, on the nett at least, we can only be as hurt as we allow ourselves to be.
You don't seem to have heard a bloody word i said .. speed reading again? Too trapped by the "them" vs "us" mentality to think straight? So again I say:
I haven't had anything to do with you or your work but by all accounts it is appreciated. I too was sexually abused as a child but chose not to speak about it to anyone. Even my wife of 20 years never knew anything about it until one of my sisters told her some stuff. I just don't like talking about somethings and i think our memory often blocks traumatic events out for good reason.
I'd just like to say that I find it a bit strange you complaining that a victim of abuse was harmed by things said by an annonymous poster on an internet discussion board. I'd caution you vet people carefully before having them post or speak out about thier experiences anywhere. If they aren't strong enough to stand up and fight or take a few knocks along with the inevitable hugs and bouquets what the hell are they doing going public? I know emotions aren't that simple but i do shake my head at anyone starting a fire then complaining about the heat. Gee what a bastard i am ay? lol.
I can't bring myself to post what happened to me as a child and i'm a big hairy beast of a man not afraid of nuth'n but what's in my head. Call me a gutless wonder or whatever I know i couldn't handle the flak from telling my story how it was so i don't post. I know it's cathartic for these folk but why go on a public forum, them as soon as a little critisism comes, run away crying 'i'm a victim' i'm a victim' .. sheesh, most of us here are victims .. it's often playing prima donna and nothing to do with reality. It's as silly as old men standing around comparing battle scars, then getting into a fight about who's the bravest, most hard done by soldier to take up the kings shilling.
I don't know how many lives the watchtower society has saved, how many beatings they saved me at the hands of my abusive parents, I don't know how many suicides they've caused or spiritual rapes they've inflicted .. it is an evil organization, no doubt, but weighing it's crimes against its virtues is a fools game in my book.
Anyhow, i wish you the best and just ask you prepare folk better for the world of internet posting.
PS: This is the first time we've spoken and it's turning ugly already lol. All I am asking is for you to respond to what I have actually said rather than you trying to make a sraw man out of it.
I'll have to concur with JT above.
The first thing that should be on our minds is the welfare of those who come here. They are going to be flawed even as we are and it will take no particular talent to locate those flaws. Therefore it seems to me that we should expect them, make allowance for them, and then look past them and see what we can find to build on. Later, after we have come to know them and their situation, perhaps we can help them adjust a few things.
In this case, when one comes out with their story, especially one as touchy as sexual abuse, we should give them every benefit of the doubt that we can. This is by no means being gullible. It won't cost us anything to hold judgement until some time passes and we can get a better feel for the individual and her circumstances.
In my book, those who immediately jump all over someone's credibility are more interested in their own pride than in other's welfare, if in no other way than that they cannot stand the thought of having the wool pulled over their eyes.
Speaking personally, I would far rather be taken advantage of ten times rather than judge someone quickly and further the injury that they have already suffered.
MA and I have had some communication and as far as I am concerned, he's alright. In this instance though, he did bring this on himself. The amount people will include him is in direct proportion to the amount they trust him, and that includes both the extent that he can be trusted with confidences and how much patience and care he shows with their imperfections. He needs to work on both.
MA has a lot to offer. He just needs to realize that one has much better success in feeding people if he doesn't put the food in a cannon and shoot them with it.
On the other hand, I must agree with (I think) Scally, when she says that he too has been hurt and this is a cry for help. Hopefully, this will give him pause and he'll come back with a minder approach to sensitive things.
So many great comments here already...
I'll just add this:
Perhaps the monsters are afraid of the children too!
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
I believe there are boards where anything even victimizing child molestors' victims goes on with the moderator's approval but on this one victimizing raped children and bullying and discouraging anti-Watchtower expose' campaigns and the like is rightly regarded as tyranny. The bullying was from Mad, not Bill Bowen/Silentlambs or Simon. If some of you want to name-call those who disagree with you then add me to the list but if so think: what are your own moral standards about protecting the weak? Would it be fair to give Adolph Hitler free rein on a board to not just speak out but to verbally discourage and crush those trying to speak against his tyranny? To curse and laugh at his victims including raped children? Now I know of you simply enjoy the challenge of word arguing, but this really is something different here.
"When you use your freedom of speech to hurt poeple without remorse you diserve any sanction that gets your attention and lets you know that type of behavior is unacceptable."
Yes, like at district assemblies and podium speakers too. Even speakers at the householders door. PRINTED LITERATURE TOO. Their freedoms to speak ARE tolerated and feed to the masses, yet.......
sKally, thanking bill for his site, which she plugs daily on yahoo klass
Things shaping up quite nicely on this thread, as usual.
There are some good points - and some of them were brought out on the original, deleted, thread also.
1. Nute didn't bring that molestation account here - Bill did. Persons were responding to Bill, imho. Nute took them personally....so I would have too, if I were her. It seems it was a misunderstanding gone bad.
2. Nute shouldn't post about such painful events on an open forum - anywhere, if she's not strong enough to take negative comments. Negative comments can range from "hey, come on....not *all* congregations have molestors in them* to Mad Apostate's flame & fury.
Nute needs to protect herself first, as many have brought out. We don't know her, we can't protect her.
3. I - with all my heart - believe that rape/molestation victims and survivors should be given some latitude at least on the first couple of posts.....like Mario was given to establish themselves. Many of us.....perhaps even ALL of us, speak in over wide generalizations a time or hundred. Anybody recounting the rape of themselves or their innocent child is in pain, imho. You have no idea how hard it is to try to be polite, politically correct, and emotionally detached - yet succint, all at the same time. Cut those in pain some initial slack about wording? See the person behind the post?
4. Simon has already stated that he's willing to communicate by e-mail with MadApostate. Even if he's in the same boat as all the rest of us strange x-jw's......at some point, being civil to others comes into play. Gross insults do demean the other person for all to see, and they can hurt....particularily if the other person is already hurting.
5. JT makes incredibly good points.
ps: Thank you, unclebruce, for the acknowledgement - I appreciate it. No matter how many times a mother speaks about the rape of her child, it's never painless. It slackens after a while, but never goes away.
The injustice of the rape/molestation of a child shouldn't go away - it should be continued to be spoken about. Hell, even screamed about once in a while.
UPDATE for those who missed it.
He got off way to easy in my opinion.
He for some reason wanted to upset and hurt people and I also believe by his actions wanted to be removed from the board.
WOW this thread sure got off track!!!
Tina and Kismet I luv the both of you and I'm sorry that you arent' getting a long, but do ya mind taking that someplace else. This thread is supposed to be about MA and why he got deleted. I know your mad but just going round and round ain't helping, how about you agree to disagree, or agree to hate, but lets call a truce ok!!!! this isn't good for either one of you or the board!!!
"Injustice will continue until those who are not affected by it are as outraged as those who are."
I took your advice and reviewed your post and as near as I can tell this is what you were requesting when you said:
"I'd just like to say that I find it a bit strange you complaining that a victim of abuse was harmed by things said by an annonymous poster on an internet discussion board."
I do not find my comments to be a "complaint" they were meant to defend a person who was being bullied for no good reason.
"I'd caution you vet people carefully before having them post or speak out about thier experiences anywhere. If they aren't strong enough to stand up and fight or take a few knocks along with the inevitable hugs and bouquets what the hell are they doing going public?
This appears to be the crux of your request and I will be glad to answer. I always am very clear with victims about going public with their story, I often encourage them to think about it few days as it is a personal decision about a very personal subject. I to point out the benefit of them lending their voice to the other silentlambs with the goal of protecting children. I personally believe learning to speak out about what happened can be another step in the healing process but I would never pressure or try to force a person to take that step. The last few victims I have talked to I have suggested going out to this forum, some have never sent their stories in but it helps them to see others who are going through various problems and a lot of information to read on various levels. Each and every person I have talked to about the board is encouraged to be careful as the board is like the wild wild west and you never know how people will respond to you. It is generally better to just read the posts for a while and if you do decide to register be sure and remain anonyomous as it is a protection. If things get rough you can just leave and no one knows who you are. I do not know what more I can say, do you have any suggestions?
I know emotions aren't that simple but i do shake my head at anyone starting a fire then complaining about the heat. Gee what a bastard i am ay? lol.
I agree emotions are not that simple and I do not have control of the decisions a victim may make when they come to the board. Whatever they decide I believe we should support them the best way we can. When an individual like MA makes the decision to discredit, bully and hurt a person who is trying to stand up for what is right I cannot stand back and look the other way. I have learned from this and will never post another victims story on this website. I also will never encourage another victim to come to this board as I some ways it is starting to be just another Kingdom Hall where the backstabbing critics run the show and follow selfserving agendas. Yet I would like to think if ever MA or anyone else makes the poor decision to assasinate a child molestation victim with words that people like you and others will speak up and say it is not acceptable, even as they did on the original thread.
Exactly what further benefit is it to these individuals to post their stories here in addition to posting them on your website? Should not your website be sufficient, at least until these individuals have worked through their terrible ordeals?
Given the nature of this place, I can't see what therapist would encourage someone to post their story in this environment. Perhaps each survivor should be strongly encouraged to talk with their therapist about before posting?