Regarding MAD APOSTATE
Mad Apostate aint no troll, hes tryna make people think before they react.Can you imagine if someone even spoke out implying there was somethin about mr lambs approach that they didnt like,while wearin their real face?>
theyd get run off the board by a howling mob,
You know that, I know that, but there are some ppl who take themselves too seriously that scream out "troll, troll" whenever they encounter someone who disagrees with their theories.
I am showing my real face. :-} I think that too many here (and on other sites) assume that what is written in chat, clubs, groups, message boards are the gospel. I think for anyone who asks for proof before believing is a smart person.
Hi Prisca, Silent, MA, Sam, et al,
For the life of me, I can't understand this preoccupation with labels; methinks it's a vestige of our dub days where we replaced the only labels that really count, i.e. ``brother; ``sister;'' ``Christian; ``human being,'' whatever, with ``pioneer;'' ``special pioneer;'' ``Bethelite;'' ``elder;'' ``ministerial servant;'' ad infinitum, ad nausem.
If by ``troll'' you refer to a currently active JW or apologist who lurks here and occasionally takes a poke or two at the rest of us, then I say `welcome!'' This is about the only place they can peer at the other side of the JW coin -- the alternative point of view -- and maybe some of what they read hear will get them thinking -- isn't that one of the things we'd like to see happen?
So, Bethel boys, if you're ``trolling'' here for insight on the`dark side'' of the JW experience, I bid you welcome.
Remember, apostates need love too.
Anyway, that one person's view.
Trolling: “Posting derogatory messages about sensitive subjects on newsgroups and chat rooms to bait users into responding.”
MA often fits this definition, it seems to me. Silentlambs posts a victim’s story and MA demands “proof.” How insensitive! I have not been close to a child molestation case, but I can imagine the pain it causes that person. Bill has said that most do not want their story told, and when one does come along who is willing to tell her story, I can not imagine nor understand the insensitivity that must be behind a call for “proof.”
Sure, in court proof is required. That is an important reason that so many cases go undiscovered or untried. This is not an appropriate place to “prove” such cases, IMO. Bill has an excellent track record as far as I know and I am willing to accept the cases he brings to this board. I think it is the height of insensitivity to rant and howl and scare away victims who have every reason to be timid and afraid without the likes of MA bullying their way through the thread like a bull in a china shop.
Jerks like MA are at the very least clumsy, insensitive and apparently uncaring, poor excuses for humans.
I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted. Solomon
Since I am one of the three posters you mention (though not by name) I feel it my responsibility to respond to your post here.
First, I want to say for the 20th time that I stand behind you and your effort to protect children from abuse (of ANY kind) and further, to cause no further injury to those who've already suffered the horror. On one of the deleted threads, I'd made the mistake of saying we ALL wanted that but was rightly admonished by another poster to amend that statement relative to the "ALL" part. So be it. I cannot speak for everyone. I CAN speak of my own intent and wish.
It would not bother me to know that you have no memory of this, but when you revealed your breaking story at the end of 2000 on h2o I was among the first to applaud your stand and followed your story with great interest as it unfolded here on JW.com and in the press. I have nothing but respect for you, and owing to our similar history of having been raised in the truth, I feel that I know you personally and although we have never met (as far as I know) I consider you a brother in the fullest sense of the word.
That being said, I'd like to comment on your words as they apply to me personally.
I do not know why but with this victim’s story three people chose to challenge the way certain statements were made. I tried on three occasions to defuse the negative comments and two of the posters came around and either allowed room for misunderstanding or apologized. This was commendable as it helped the victim to see it was not intentioned the way it may have appeared.Is it really true that you "don't know why" I said what I said? I feel that I (and Joel and MadApostate, too, for that matter) was very clear in explaining my reservations. Not only that, in my opinion, my reasoning had solid foundation. Removed from the emotional volatility of the subject, I stand by my statements even now. Immediate and total belief in any and every allegation is not and should not be expected in cases like this, particularly when placed in front of those who 1. Have been lied to for years by a corrupt religious system for decades and, 2. Know nothing about the author of the alleged abuse beyond their screen name. A healthy dose of skepticism is, well... healthy. The three of us who in pointing out what *I* saw as obvious 'problems' in the story served a useful purpose. I cannot speak for Joel or MadA, but my intent was to help Nute communicate her experience more convincingly and less judgmentally toward all JWs everywhere.
You are right; two of us worked to explain our misgivings or otherwise moderated our tone. I thought that in view of their validity it would have been nice touch had Nute (or you in that one's behalf) given some attention to our concerns, but such clarification on YOUR part was not forthcoming. Our concerns were not addressed or respected AT ALL, and our doubts where used as a broad brush to paint us as thoughtless and inconsiderate posters with an agenda to injure victims. That was wrong.
As I told you in your "Mother's Letter To Start Off The New Year" thread, I hate the Watchtower religion even though I was raised in it. It could disappear by noon Eastern Standard Time and I'd breathe a huge sigh of relief. Still, I don't hate the people *in* it (my wife, mother and other relatives are dubs), not a single one of them. *They* are victims, too. Beyond that, many of them are exactly where they want to be and they have the right to worship god however they want. Then too, not every aspect of the religion is bad and there are definite advantages to being a Witness, particularly if you have family 'in.'
All that being said, I do not and will not seize any and every opportunity to vilify the Society regardless of the total veracity (or lack thereof) of charges made against it, especially if I have sincere doubts. For me to do so would be a gross error, a repeating of the wrongs that have been committed against me personally over the years.
I digress. It's rare that I disclose what small acts I perform that others might construe as commendable, but doing so in this case bears on this public discussion. Like I said, it's a small thing that I disclose. When I got up early last Saturday morning, the first two threads I checked were those dealing with Nute. Seeing how Joel's and MadApostate's and my concerns were being misread and misused, and thinking even more about the genuine harm that might be coming to one who may have been reading the escalating rhetoric, I shot Simon a mail to let him know (in case he was unaware) of what was taking place on the two threads so he could take a look.
Expecting what did transpire (the deletion of the thread) and further, expecting a possible he-said/she-said exposition that would ensue concerning the deleted threads (what's happening here and elsewhere since), I took the time to save the three pages of the "Child Molestation Story." Together, they are quite small (about 220KB) so if anyone is interested in reading it for themselves, email me and I'd be more than happy to send them your way.
Last, I do not know the poster "LB." I do not know if his statements are true, but he DID say that, 1. He knows Nute personally and, 2. "She" (LB's word) never wanted her story posted here. If that's so, I think it only fair to say, Bill, that YOUR hands aren't entirely clean in this whole affair. YOU posted the story to begin with.
Personally, I feel very, very bad about what I said in those threads despite my sincerity and desire to help not only Nute but also others who might want to share their story later on. I tried to make amends for whatever harm I might have caused by my potentially painful, though, honest, words. I now consider my participation relative to Nute at an end.
p.s. On a side note (but one mentioned here) you said that you started on this path to help abused JW children when you learned that one you knew personally was at risk. Standing up to defend that one, you say, "meant a stand against six million misinformed JWs." In my opinion, you need to amend that statement for despite its brevity, it contains TWO potentially profound errors.
Proof has its place in most discussions on boards where allegations are made on less painful issues. SL and others are correct in exempting molestation victims from further demands of proof from discussion boards. We are not here to add to their pain. The courts will be painful enough for the victims.
If I want shit from you I'd squeeze your head STFU>Tina
Hey MAD, what's with the link? It won't work. What's it about? Auto racing?
edited for spelling.