Blacksheep I can understand that but let me ask this, how long have you been trying to get your family out and how successful have you been? And again can you imagine being a devout JW sitting in a restaurant and having an apostate intrude on your personal space knowing darn well that even if you wanted to hug them and have a conversation with them you can’t, not because you don’t want to but because you have to make a choice between having a relationship with this person or properly worshiping your god?
Why don't you just take it like a man?
by AK - Jeff 199 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Lucky Calamity
purplesofa's words are what it's all about for many of us:
"In my mind I take it like a man, in my heart it's a very hurt child."
"Giving support is one thing, enabling a victim mentality is another thing."
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mrsjones5
Ah, I got her. She's ignoring me now.
I love it.
LOL
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Lucky Calamity
Lola, how and why do you equate getting disfellowshipped or disassociating with "telling a whole group of people to go straight to hell?"
Disfellowshipping is what happens by default because someone can't allow themselves to disassociate, and disassociating happens because the JW organization backs individuals who can't or won't meet impossible expectations into a corner.
"Choosing" to do one or the other isn't really a choice for people who want and need to self-actualize as human beings, but who would remain locked into a cult if one or the other did not occur.
This is why the "victim" and "rape" analogy is rightly used to describe the experiences and feelings of those who have experienced it, and why telling them to "take it like a man" is so offensive.
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lola28
Lucky,
When you get DF’ed it can be for so many reasons, it can be so arbitrary and unfair that you can’t equate it to telling them to go to hell. But when you DA and are so militant the way you go about things than yeah I’d say that’s pretty much telling them t go to hell and make no mistake I don’t blame anyone for wanting to show publicly that they no longer support the organization.
For every action there’s a reaction, and you can’t have it all. It would be great to be able to bow out and live your life and still have the respect of your family and friends but sadly it’s not going to happen because it really does come back to them having to make a very hard decision, do they associate with you and risk their relationship with god and their standing in the congregation?
Yes it’s painful, I won’t dispute that but again we all make choices and we have to live with the consequences of those choices and it’s a tradeoff, you get to live your life as you want but in the process you have to give up a lot. Again totally unfair and wrong but that’s what it is and until the society changes the way they deal with DF’ed and DA’ed ones we all have to understand the sort of treatment that we will receive if we make the choice to leave.
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Black Sheep
I can understand that but let me ask this, how long have you been trying to get your family out and how successful have you been?
6 years. Seeds are sown, time will tell. Most of the damage I have done has been with prospective recruits.
not because you don’t want to but because you have to make a choice between having a relationship with this person or properly worshiping your god?
I want them to have that problem.
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allelsefails
Why did Jesus go to the temple and through out the money changers? Didn't he realize it would hurt the feelings of people who thought the current system was OK? What about the feelings of the Pharisees? Didn't he care about them?
That is the point for many of us - OPEN their eyes. The same reason they might come to my door. I have not disfellowshipped anyone and I will treat everyone I meet and see as a person who deserves respect. If they want to treat me like dog crap that is their choice.
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Lucky Calamity
Lola,
As a born-in JW, who initially was backed into the disassociation corner, and then backed into the disfellowshipping corner, I am fully aware of the "choices" and "consequences" of life.
Those were some unfair "choices" for a 13-to-15-year-old to make.
Generalizing disassociating from the JWs as a "militant" act may be accurate in some, but not all cases.
I think the problem that people are having with your approach is that you are generalizing and pontificating as if every case and instance were the same, and they are not, and it is a de-humanizing thing to do and say about people who have come to this board for support and/or friendship.
People who are smarting from a burn or blow they already knew was coming don't need to hear,"you made me do it . . . if only you had or hadn't done this or that, I would not have smacked you down." They need to hear,"it won't happen again, at least not here, and not with me." Somehow, I can't hear that in words like:
"until the society changes the way they deal with DF’ed and DA’ed ones we all have to understand the sort of treatment that we will receive if we make the choice to leave." Where is support, empathy, friendship or love in those words?
There is no one here who has not been smacked down by the Watchtower Clowns, even their biggest apologists, so there is no need to tell those of us who have already been smacked down -- AND who've pretty much gotten up and brushed off our knees and decided to share our stories and help someone else or ourselves sort out our feelings -- to get over it or take it like a man. It shows contempt for the pain of others to do so.
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Vinny
Lola has opinions. Everybody else has opinions. Some totally agree with Lola, others only partially agree. Some totally disagree with Lola others only partially disagree. Same goes for AK-Jeff and his opinions and reactions.
It does not mean that anybody here is wrong. Her opinions are as valid as the original poster's. And I personally agree with many of Lola's points of view here.
Jeff willfully disassociated... (as did I). And now he's insulted when JW's he knows and helped in the past shun him today.
Lola gave her opinion on another thread that this is how it is with JW's, it's what they do, that he knows this and to basically stop whining, grow balls etc because they are shunning/dissing him now.
Jeff decided to start a new thread, here, because he didn't like what she said, I guess. And we have people on both sides of the issue with very passionate, reasonable and intelligent replies from both sides.
While I lean more towards Lola's side in all of this I also can agree with other specific opposing viewpoints as well. BOTH are legitimate positions, especially to them, depending on the individual, their experiences, state of mind, background and too many other things to list here.
Why bash Lola's point of view then? In fact why start an entire new thread trying (what appears to me) to actually seek Lola bashers and sympathy votes for yourself Jeff?
I don't see her bashing other's positions here. She even stated maybe she could have worded it a little differently, which shows reasonableness.
And then some just seem to love following Lola around, doing the needle job, while posting minimal content towards the issues being discussed themselves.
This subject being discussed, IMO, is just one of those issues/situations where there is no clear-cut right or wrong answer.
And when people start topics, posting their problems, situations and opinions publicly, in places here like the JWN, you can expect a variety of responses from a variety of people with an assortment of experiences and backgrounds.
All of these opinions expressed should have at least some merit. It's not as if these opinions posted are from people without a clue. We've all been there.
And if you don't like what was suggested/posted then why make a big deal and start an entire new thread? Why not just take it or leave it and move on?
All of us have been burned to some degree here. We sure do have that in common.
I say Beer summit time.
Vinny
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lola28
Thanks Vinny, I won’t post on this thread anymore because I have a feeling that if I do this will turn into in all out b*tchfest in the morning, so better to let it go now before it gets out of hand.
Lola