Why is Jesus kept side stage ?

by iknowall558 178 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  passwordprotected

  None of this changes that there is only one God Jehovah! ( You may not like that personal name is absent in greek scripture as far as we know but the concept of almighty God who isn't Jesus is there without doubt

  Actually, all of it changes your assertion that there is one God Jehovah. Show me the concept in the Greek scriptures that there's an almighty God called Jehovah.

  The fact that it is absent from the Greek Scriptures is absolutely key. Please explain to me how any honest-hearted person would know that the name Jehovah is essential for salvation by reading an ordinary copy of the New Testament?

  I'm stunned that you're quoting Romans 8 to me. Romans 8, as far as your leaders tell you, applies to 144,000 people only. I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing you're not one of them. So, how can Romans 8:17 apply to you as a non-Christian? You're not a co-heir with Christ.

  Remembering our leaders is not the same thing as obeying them. Obedience is an expectation of you from the Governing Body. You're maybe being a wee bit fly here by quoting from the NIV when you know full well the NWT says "pay attention". Christians imitate the faith of those who take the lead in the churches, but they do so while applying 1 John 4:1, a verse that's very difficult for any JW to apply and not end up being disfellowshipped.

  Lastly, if the Bible calls Jesus God, which is does - this you cannot deny - is Jesus a false god? Remember, the Bible says there is one true God.

  Unless you give Jesus his position as God, you're completely gazzumped.

  Oh, one last thing; can you show me where, in the New Testament, Jehovah is referred to as the Father. I'm very curious.
• 

  passwordprotected

  God put Jesus at his right hand, correct. Where does that mention Jehovah being the almighty God?

  Btw, you mention getting the Holy Spirit for guidance.

  Wrong.

  As a Jehovah's Witness with the 'earthly hope' you do not get the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was poured out on....Christ's brothers. Your leaders have taught you that they alone have the Holy Spirit.

  Quote from the 2008 District Convention baptism talk;

  "1 Cor 2:10 - the Holy Spirit reveals the deep things of God. This is the same thing as obeying the "faithful and discreet slave" class. The "faithful and discreet slave" are needed to understand the deep things of God. We should therefore give credit to the "faithful and discreet slave" class for revealing the deep things of God."

  Another talk at the 2008 District Convention claimed;

  "There are two steps we need to take when studying the Bible. Step 1 - allow Christ to guide us via information provided by the Governing Body. Step 2 - pray for the Holy Spirit".

  Confused yet?
• 

  isaacaustin

  No, but that does not change the fact that the Son is of equal nature to the Father....at his right hand as his agent in caryring out his decisions....distinction in role does not negate the equal nature and perfect operation as one spiritual flesh Renia. None of the verses you quoted have shown that to be the case but only accentuate that.
• 

  reniaa

  Can I ask ypou a question password do you think then that the hebrew scriptures are not the bible? from your talk and rejection of YHWH God's personal name I must assume this.

  Hebrews 13:17
  Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

  here it says obey so your point on that is just semantics.

  2 Timothy 3:16
  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

  this shows we are all to be directed by scripture ALL of it not just the cherry picked ones we personally like.

  Now on the subject of obeying Jesus yes he is our king but he made it clear that God his father was the first port of call in everything.

  We have presidents vice presesidents in our organisations can we not understand that same organisation with God and his son Jesus?

  Matthew 7:21
  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

  John 4:23
  Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

  these are Jesus's own words who does he say we should worship and do the will of?
• 

  isaacaustin

  John 5;23

  That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

  honor- to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate

  Acts 4:12

  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

  Matt 17:5 (who does the father say to listen to?)

  While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

  So..the Father says to listen to the Son. The Son tells the religious leaders that we are to honor, revere, venerate him exactly as we do the Father...

  ven⋅er⋅ate    / 'v?n??re?t / Show Spelled Pronunciation [ ven - uh -reyt ] Show IPA

  –verb (used with object), -at⋅ed, -at⋅ing.

  to regard or treat with reverence; revere.

  ---

  Origin:
  1615–25; < L veneratus, ptp. of venerari to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere, v. deriv. of vener-, s. of venus, presumably in its original sense “desire”; see Venus )http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venerate We are told in Acts by Jesus that we are to be witnesses of him. Paul shows that there is no salvation in ANY other name. Yet the WT has the audactiy to insert Jehovah (and say this means the Father) in ROmans 10 where we are told who we need to call on for salvation. Read context reniaa...you may learn something. Put aside your WTs....stop lying ....perhaps you may learn.
• 

  passwordprotected

  I don't reject the Hebrew Scriptures as they all point to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, in whom the entire Hebrew collection of Laws and prophecies was fulfilled. The Hebrew Scriptures all talk about what was merely a shadow of what was to come, namely Jesus Christ.

  I don't reject the name YHWH, I just don't see it anywhere in the Christian Greek scriptures, therefore I don't believe it should be elevated above the name of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (Phil 2:9-11)

  You have to understand that while all scripture is indeed 'God-breathed', the Hebrew Scriptures do not set the model for Christians. You have to understand that. Your leaders, the Governing Body, have set up a religious system that is a replication of the Mosaic Law Covenant. How does YHWH feel when he sees you and 7 million others submitting to the laws of the Watch Tower Society when Christ's death set us free from such things?

  Hilariously, you completely miss the point that you're trying not to make;

  Matthew 7:21
  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

  Says to who? Who is Lord? And what is the will of the Father who sent Christ? That people believe in Christ (John 6:29). And who did Thomas believe Christ to be? 'Ho Theos'.

  Jesus said that the Father has to be worshiped. And who does the Father say should be worshiped? Heb 1:6 - "let all the angels worship him". Did Jesus reject worship and point it to the Father? John 9:38 - "Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshipped him.

  This is the basics, Reniaa, the basics.

  You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about Jesus Christ, yet you refuse to come to him to have life. You refuse to honour Christ, just as you honour the Father (you still haven't proved that Jehovah is the Father, btw), and by doing so you dishonour the Father who sent Christ.

  May God forgive you and show you the light of truth.
• 

  reniaa

  If john meant worship isaac he would have said worship, it's not like he did't use the word when he chose too.

  you quote john 5:23 here is a scripture near that..

  John 4:24
  God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

  he would have used worship if it applied isaac.
• 

  KW13

  Thing is, if they work along the lines of Jesus is 'less' than God, and that he chose the Organization as his earthly representative then they are basically the new jesus, something for people to see and follow on earth. This then gives them the power to do as they please.
• 

  reniaa

  Password you reject YHWH in favour of Jesus this isn't just about Two Gods but replacing one with another but Jesus himself doesn't do that and does not ask for that. he even tells us to pray to his father.

  Matthew 6:4-8 (New International Version)

  4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

  5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

  why would paul say this next scripture if Jesus was then to be worshiped instead of YHWH?

  Acts 24:14
  However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

  Revelation 19:10
  At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

  here an angel testifies that Jesus came to bring worship to God in his testimony.

  and here Jesus's own words

  John 8:27-29 (New International Version)

  27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."
• 

  isaacaustin

  Read the book of Matthew Reniia...you will see multiple accounts of Jesus accepting worship.

  Or how about Rev ch 5...

  	Rev 5:11	Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
  	Rev 5:12	saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
  	Rev 5:13	And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, {be} blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
  	Rev 5:14	And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.

  Hmm...the entire heavenly host worshipping the Father and Son together. I missed the rebuke of the host for worshipping Jesus.

  Please direct me to where they were rebuked.