Didnt Jesus say that no one gets to the Father except through HIM?
Oh wait...the JWs say no one gets to the Father except through THEM. Semantics really.
Why is Jesus kept side stage ?
by iknowall558 178 Replies latest watchtower bible
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lurk3r
Ren doesn't have a leg to stand on, and she knows it. There is a smidgen of sorrow i feel towards her, but by and large, she is just deplorable. I personally think this site just drives her ego, and that alone just irks me to no end. I think she has been out before, and it was probably more than she can bear. I have only been here a short while, but I see a pattern. Reniaa talks and EVERYONE jumps in to jump on her, I think this in itself drives her to think she is in the right. She isnlt here to gain personal support, and she isnt here to help the Witness cause in any way shape or form. She is an attention harlot, as far as i can see.
Could we just ignore her? Could we maybe start a thread outlining this? If there was ever grounds for "dis-fellowshipping" someone here, I'm sure she has met the criteria. People are doing nothing but succombing to her game, which includes a couple threads from me. I'm borderline ashamed of myself.
lurk3r
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Hobo Ken
@ lurker
I hear you on Reniaa she can be annoying, but I take the view that if she's here she's a possible candidate for leaving. Yuo may be right she could be on a power trip but how many of us were exactly like that on the field circus?
I know that prior to me realising the horrible truth about the teachings and true identity of the wts I was on a "spiritual high" , pioneering 6 months in a row so I wasn't in a Jw "weak state".
Perhaps the fact she is on here on her cyber soap box means she is close to that point?
I guess I'm saying everyone deserves a chance to come out ,and she could not be in a better place to hear all the evidence against her beloved organisation.
H.K.
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wobble
The problem is Hobo,she does not "hear" the evidence, she is adept at ignoring everything which shows she is wrong,and sidelining threads,I am convinced her motive is to convince active Dubs that their beliefs have some credibility,and she dosn't care how she does that.
Just see if she answers any of the points made to her. plainly from scripture, withany kind of intellectual honesty, i.e addressing the point in question, she will not.
this forum is for honest debaters, not dis-honest aplogists.
Love
Wobble
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RaraAvis
Ren believes she has "the truth." She feels strongly enough about her beliefs to visit an apostate website and try to convince those who have left the organization she still has "the truth." I feel really sad for her, because she is so close-minded.
That is the saddest part in my opinion, because before a person learns all this witness bs, they were open-minded enough to listen. And usually it is because of their love for God, their interest in pleasing God, and desire to praise God, that leads them to listen in the first place. So there they are, open-minded, and wanting to do what is right. And then they become completely mind-twisted, to the point their minds are so closed and sealed air-tight. No longer a need for an open-mind, in fact the exact opposite. They are completely convinced they have "the truth" they forget where they were once. They ignore the things that bother their conscience and they continue to convince themselves using which ever "truth" convinced them the most. They ignore the big picture.
Fear of being wrong; fear - in my opinion is what leads many to a site like this. Because we have doubts about other things we start upholding the things that may have truly convinced us we had the truth. Instead we have to look at the things we have doubts about, not the things we feel rock solid on. It is only in the JW organization, you are not allowed to have differing, personal beliefs.
Our spiritual beliefs are personal, between God, and Christ. It is offensive to me when we force those beliefs on others. I spent a lifetime doing that, and have no desire to continue. I become skeptical everytime someone tries to talk me into or out of something. Thank you for that WTBTS!
I feel love and open-mindedness goes a long way.
Ren, so I can tell there are several doctrinal issues you feel strongly about. Surely there are some witness teachings that make you wonder. I would like to know what those are.
:) RA
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iknowall558
RENIA - I was just wondering if anyone in the congregation knows you come on to this site ? Do you keep it a secret from them ? You strike me as someone who likes to have their say and display your "knowlege" of the Bible. Do you have to keep quiet and not answer up when there are articles on apostates/apostasy being discussed through the literature because you do not have the freeness of speech to comment ? You are on this site almost daily conversing and communicating with apostates and disfellowshipped people. You are failing to be obedient to Jehovah who tells you through the FDS not to have anything to do with these people. YOU ARE A DISOBEDIENT JW. Does your conscience bother you when you are saying your prayers to Jehovah when you know that he can see what you are doing ? Why are you trying SO hard to defend your organisation when you are blatantly not listening or obeying them yourself ? You must feel that their teaching on not talking to df and apostate JWs is not for you. Why is this teaching not for you ? I am genuinely interested, and I'm more than 100% sure that you wouldn't talk to an apostate or df person in the street. Why do it via your computer screen? It makes no difference, you are still ignoring the FDS counsel given to you.
You definitely have a fire in your belly and I would have to say that you would make a great apostate ! You're already half way there.
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lurk3r
Nice to talk Hobo, and pleased to meet you.
I am a newb just like you. I have limited post like you, and as much as i loathe "spending" another one on her, I will. I don't "know her", I only see where she is coming from. I have a hard time continuing with WANTING to know, when she skirts so very much. It has bothered me deeply to see the attention she gets from others here, as I draw the conclusion that since she is causing conflict, she is doing her job as a good Christian. I do regret the way I approached her here on this thread to some degree, but felt it was the only way to get a point across. Once again, a skirting reply that danced around valid points while running away after quoting a scripture. I feel sorry for her, and would love to have an open talk with her, but she is not sincere enough to be able. From one of her recent posts, I see she is 3rd gen. Hence, she is heavily indoctrinated.
Actually we can back it up even a little more. Going back to her very first thread here on this board. (im not doing this to hurt you Reniaa)
I've been a faded JW for 10 years I left because of my failed first marriage, I'm no hypocrite and realised I had left completely so I embraced the world and dived in, Only christmas and birthdays I could not get into, they were too foreign to me having never celebrated them, like if I suddenly tried to do ramadan or something like that.
Similarily to myself, I was a "fader" for about the same time. Apocrophyl posted here the other day, and i wrote her a little note as I made many mistakes coming out. My biggest; diving headfirst into "the world". It was the biggest mistake of my life, as I wanted nothing more than to form another identity, as i had only known 1 of life, my whole life, and figured this was the right way to do it. I did the complete opposite of the way in which i was raised. Instead of jumping over the hurdle in coming out, I formed another one making the whole process of leaving even harder.
1/ All the criticisms of the people in the truth you say on here, I've found in the world, warts and all only in the world nothing holds them back from being utterly horrible to you.
I couldn't agree more. You have to be VERY careful of who you trust in the world...it's a very sobering revelation. I shared my soul with people I wish I never. In the truth, you think you can trust most everyone...that carries over to the world when you leave unless you know to be careful already. Not EVERYONE here criticizes though. Not everyone in the 'world' does either. Unless you learn to 'pick and choose', you leave yourself open for hurt. Being raised in the truth, you NEVER have the option. Accept it, there is no other option except that.
2/ I got stabbed by a worldly boyfriend, I got married 2 times of my own choosing to men outside the truth, the first smoked and was an alcoholic, the second gambled every penny we had and defrauded me out of money after we separated, 2 divorces later I am currently pregnant and a single mum since current boyfriend decided kids was to much of a responsibility and he needed his freedom and I was 'too selfish to expect him to give up his life'.
I now see why Reniaa lives in fear. Look at all the hurdles she has to jump over, BEFORE she could even THINK about anything else. Reniaa. From my own personal experience, can i ask you...Were you like me? Did you feel like you needed to be loved by someone else to feel better about everything? I made most of my mistakes thinking that way. I have no kids, and can;t imagine the load you have had to carry over time. Many worldly people ARE assholes! But not ALL, and certainly not everyone on this board. Many Witnesses ARE assholes too, but certainly not all.
4/ I miss the honest friendships of the truth, I had friends of all ages from 14 to 80 years old and they genuinely cared for me, many trying to keep me in the faith a long time after I left but I was determined to fade so moved away completely, but I find friendships in the world so shallow in comparison and very hard to sustain :( I've never been a drinker and sometimes thats what friendship means you being a companion for them to goto pub with.
I can relate Reniaa, so well. I miss my old relationships. EVERY single day I miss em. I miss my days of ignorance often too. Like you, I'm not there anymore. I too, could relate to so many people of varying ages, cause we all had one thing in common, but we don't anymore. I still LOVE it when i bump into some of them here and there, but I don't miss the superficial relationships we had. I donlt feel it's fair to them to mix like we used to, cause it means I'm not being honest to them, and in turn,myself. I'm sorry Reniaa. My current g/f is different than most worldlings that I know, it's part of the reason that I love her. It's not all as black and white as you think my dear...I wish it was some days, truly i do. Grey is my favorite color.
5/ My recent boyfriend was in a christian religion, I thought why not find out about it, Harvest churches if you ever heard of them, unfortunately it still hasn't stop him leaving me pregnant and alone and when I said to him how does he clear that with God, he replies "As long as I repent it doesn't matter" it's like he has a "get out of jail free card" for any wrong-doing in the bible, this is so alien to me and my witness trained conscience.
As you know firsthand, it doesn't matter what religion your part of, you are who YOU are, not what a religion will MAKE YOU. I know, that you know, many people that are in the truth are capable of this. I'm not criticizing the truth Reniaa. People ARE people. You can't change that. We were alwys taught that you could, but we ARE older and we know better...now. I'm sorry Reniaa.
6/ I recently out of frustration tried looking into atheism and joined their forums, It wasn't fun, they are as bombastic and arrogant as their Religious counterparts can be from any religion, they make a religion out of not believing in God, It's very weird they talk of saving people from believing in god and offer nothing to replace it. They said to me "be happy you are in reality now and enjoy it" and I thought "well if this is reality I've had enough of it".
If we do ANYTHING out of frustration, we do it wrong usually. I have come to accept, that you can't make a good decision based on emotion. Out as long as i have been, Atheism scares me. I left the Truth, and when I actually acknowledged what I was looking at, it SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF ME. Adam and Eve took no responsibility for their actions...I think the Genesis account in this regard is true now.We are responible for the direction we CHOOSE to go in. Free will. I will approach atheism when I am ready, and on my terms. Until then, I have to get comfortable with where I'm at first. Completely.
So here I am feeling like the prodigal daughter and thinking being among warm-hearted if strict people who will accept me back and give me a sense of community again that I haven't seen in any other christian faith for all I've looked, has gotta be better than being shoved and shunned and used by people who have stopped caring for each other and only think of themselves.
Your thoughts please?
You have my thoughts. I'm sorry for the long road you have travelled and what it has brought you in return. I know how it feels, beleive me. Stay in the truth Reniaa, if thats what you need. Please realize that it's YOUR need, and not everyone else here on the board. My Witness friends, in which I love and miss SO much, would love it if you chose to stay. Go back and look at your threads that you have started Reniaa. LOOK at the post counts! If it's not apparent now that people REALLY CARE, you are enver going to see it.People here, just want you to come to a decision, a GROUNDED, DEFINITE decision. By coming here, skirting oh so many questions, it becomes apparent that you haven't. It's not a dig against you, its just an observation.
The conflict within yourself, is going to make you sick Reniaa. Please make your stand. For yourself, for your children...for Jehovah. Live by it and it will make you better, whatever you choose. I know how tough it is and how heartwrenching it can be, growing up a 3rd Generation JW and not being able to make a decision for yourself. It makes the ones we HAVE to make now, SO much harder.
Please take care. Please try and let us deal with the things WE need to, instead of trying to make this about you. Many people; myself included,would love to help you...whatever way you choose to go. In turn, you can help others. Maybe one day you can write someone a letter like this, and show someone how much you actually care.No one is telling you what to do here, please Reniaa, from the bottom of my wee heart, don't fight what's being offered. Many people here would love to help you, but only if you choose. I KNOW that since all Witness aren't bad, there are many that will want to help you; but only if you choose. Thats the BEST part about this, you get to CHOOSE!
Sorry I called you a harlot.
lurk3r
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lurk3r
BTTT!
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reniaa
thx lurk3r
I had lost this thread for some reason I no longer have an option to see posts that I have posted and had replies to or maybe I've not found it :S despite your obvious disaproval of me your right I should be df'd on here but you are hung by your own pertard on this one since you would be then doing something you disaprove of in the witnesses that is trying to keep unity in your people's beliefs. Am I on a power trip? no but I have an affection for this forum my first one and come on occasionally to give an apposing point of view, just so some know there is one out there and probs better than mine if they look for it than the 'ear tickling' they get on here all the time.
Hi Password
thomas doesn't cut much ice with me since it is an exclamation that doesn't give any context. Whereas in hundreds or other scriptures the separation of Jesus and God is clear. including john 17:3 contextually as well as descriptively.
You agree with my scripture but still do not recognise that Jesus as God's representitive can fulfil prophecy on behalf of God? It is only under God's allowance that Jesus was able to come and be our saviour.
John 5:19-21 (New International Version)
19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
The subordination of Jesus to God his father is complete right through to revelation when he hands things back to God. It's an oxymoron to imply equality against all this evidence of insubordination.
To be honest I find it nigh on impossible understand even from the few scriptures that are dragged up as evidence against the overwhelming fluency the bible has towards saying Jesus is simply his father's son that anyone could believe anything different!
hi hobo
show me one scripture that describes divine nature you believe of 3 in 1? you can't because it doesn't exist what you put on the table are faulty constructs that make a contradiction of thousands of other scriptures. Even john 1:1 with it's lack of ho theos for word and ho theos for God in the same scripture still makes the point that the word is WITH God not that it is God.
hi isaac
again I say honour is not worship s your faulty on your reasoning there.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Shows the perfect submission of the Son to the Father. The father is the source of all decisions while the Son is the perfect agent in carrying them out. They possess the same nature...different roles. - isaacaustin
a mathematition would not agree with you reasoning on this. The context doesn't allow for any interpretation on Godly/jesus joint nature it is a Positional role description of all parties involved. lets call them a b c and d
b is the head of a and c is the head of b and d is the head of c they are all separate and distinct from each other! if you are saying that two are the same then all have to be the same. so by saying Jesus is God and God is the head of Jesus so to man is God because Jesus is his head and woman is God because man is her head. Your reasoning is a misdirection not addressed by the scripture at all. this scripture for me completely shows me that anyone saying Jesus is God is wrong, it clearly shows they are separate and not One.
Wuzluvdubs actually they say no one gets to God but through Jesus but they uphold the scriptures that show leaders are required until Jesus comes and gathering together a biblical requirement especially at these times.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version)
25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
(lol please I have heard all the 'this doesn't mean churches/kh' arguments as justifications for someone to go off and believe what they personally want to, they semantics to justify rejection of leadership and gathering.)
hi wobble
you want to make your statement correct? show me a scripture describing the trinity completely! even just 3 -=1 so far no one has brought anything to the table but easily refuted constructs by other more clearer scriptures.
haha rara
I'm not going to deliberately tell you were my wounds are so you can fire at them lol I have a couple of doubts in Jw current doctrine but not enough to shake me from the knowing that they are the most biblically accurate Religion in this time and certainly I have to wait on Jehovah less with them that the camel, elephant and mammonth swallowing I would have to do with Christendom that is turning into a PC faith and being swayed into going against biblical words because of public opinion but they started that when they let a caesar decide what God they should worship.
hi iknowall
i answer you as all who on here who use being my conscience for me as a debate technique
Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.whatever I do right or wrong that is for me to decide as it is for any of us who uses these forums but In this I fully take the blame for my actions I wouldn't blame the Jws if I lose my faith in God because I put my head in the lions mouth of these forums. Atm the the opposite has happenend these forums has made me relook scripturally at all I just accepted before and the witness Doctrines of One God and Jesus being his son and on his right hand was upheld completely.
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reniaa
hi lurk3r
I have read your final points and appreciate the thoughts there.
What I am trying to say that my experiences away from the truth taught me the real meaning of imperfection exactly as you put it all men are capable of it but who the person is depends on how this imperfection is shown and indeed the fighting of it as well the bible itself shows this too.
Romans 2:13-15 (New International Version)
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.I do not expect perfection in any religion from leaders down to humble members such as myself what I expect is adherence to bible teachings and purely that! Jws in this respect have christendom completely beat. What protection is there for me if I choose a faith that practises idolatry and draws me into accepting it in even if not in myself? none, What protection for me If I am taught to worship a God other than Jehovah? None what protection for me if a religion says fornication/adultery/homosexuality is ok when the bible says it is a serious sin? not much. What protection for me if I follow others that say I can be a faith unto myself deciding for myself what to belief in line with the bible? I would become leader/preacher/acolyte in one person and just as accountable as anyone but with all the strain all all 3 caps on my head. Can someone follow Jehovah and his son Jesus faithfully alone? probably in some countries we may not have any choice but being together Jesus shows is what we should be doing not causing divisions.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."I am with the witnesses for doctrinal reasons I could join other religions or stay apart in the world and make friends but are they better? and in some cases can be a lot worse but most of all they do not offer me any Bible truth as the Jws do.
Jehovah's witnesses believe in One Almighty God Jehovah as I do, they are my People! I should be with them :) I am working on this.
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.