Disfellowshiped Last Night - Elder Question

by johnnyc 91 Replies latest jw experiences

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  Mary

  Mary: I guess it all comes down to how you view mind control - I had a view that it was something needing to be purposefully and intently planned and executed, you view it as something that can happen passively without specific motive (as apposed to "implied motive"). The way you are viewing it then, I don't argue. But I do not believe they are having planning sessions to discuss the best way to implement mind control over the populous - like a country would implement a propaganda agenda (ie).

  I'm sure none of them use the phrase "mind control" but the bottom line is, the WTS has, over the years, sought to gain control over the rank and file's lives through various means. How often do you hear or read in their literature how bad "independent thinking" is? The Society has a terrible track record when it comes to either interpreting the scriptures or prophecy. When it becomes obvious that they've been dead wrong, they seek to minimize the damage by either blaming the rank and file for 'reading too much in to' what they said, or claim 'new light'. Good example is the whole 607 BCE date. When it was brought to Freddie Franz' attention that there was no historical, biblical or archaeological evidence for this date, he was extremely agitated as he realized how damaging this would be for the whole structure of the religion. Rather than admit they were wrong and change the date to 586 BCE, the Governing Body instead continued to teach something that they knew full well was a lie, for no other reason than to keep control over millions of lives. Or, their insane ban on blood transfusions. I'm sure they realize that there is no scriptural reason for this ban, yet they keep it in place because they know full well that if they make it a "conscience matter", that they'll have their asses sued for all the people who died in the past, believing they were 'doing the Will of God", when in actuality, they were doing the Will of Man. That my friend, is mind control, whether you want to admit it or not.
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  johnnyc

  isaacaustin: btw, thank you for wishing me the best in my appeal - i appreciate it. I think it is very hard to get things like this overturned, but I have a good feeling it will be.
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  johnnyc

  Mary: Again, I guess it is in the viewpoint. I did find some new info I just read (although from 1961) on Mind Control which supports your position. It stated (paraphrasing 2 sections):
  
  Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
  
  Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
  
  These are used to identify "Mind Control" techniques - per Dr. Lifton MD. So based upon what you are saying, and the relationship the WTBTS has with its members - you would be right. Although, thinking about it further, I guess many (if not all) religions meet this criteria - don't they?? For that matter, could these be applied to Jesus - and the nation of Israel's theocratic arrangement? From these definitions of what "Mind Control" is, a great deal of religion is caught up in the same thing. Am I wrong???
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  Deputy Dog

  Mary

  I'm sure none of them use the phrase "mind control" but the bottom line is, the WTS has, over the years, sought to gain control over the rank and file's lives through various means. How often do you hear or read in their literature how bad "independent thinking" is? The Society has a terrible track record when it comes to either interpreting the scriptures or prophecy. When it becomes obvious that they've been dead wrong, they seek to minimize the damage by either blaming the rank and file for 'reading too much in to' what they said, or claim 'new light'.

  I think you've got it right. The GB would never admit they don't know or they made a mistake. So they would make up a lie to cover themselves. This is an intentional attempt to maintain authority and control. I don't believe they set out to make zombies or said to themselves lets try to control minds, but their lying and there lack of humility, they do exactly that. I do believe they know full well they are not Gods official channel, and by claiming to be, make themselves responsible. It wouldn't be so bad if they were only trying to fool themselves, but when they abuse the rank and file, by claiming power they know they don't have, they hurt the very people they claim to love. johnnyc Please, don't try to tell us they can't see the hurt they cause. They worry more about the power they would lose than the people they hurt when they are wrong.
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  leavingwt

  I guess many (if not all) religions meet this criteria - don't they??

  The logical conslusion of where you are headed is a position held by active JWs, namely: "If a destructive, mind control cult is God's Organization, then it is most appropriate to be in such a group."

  It's a non-starter for those of us who have broken free of the bonds.

  -LWT
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  Deputy Dog

  Although, thinking about it further, I guess many (if not all) religions meet this criteria - don't they?? For that matter, could these be applied to Jesus - and the nation of Israel's theocratic arrangement? From these definitions of what "Mind Control" is, a great deal of religion is caught up in the same thing. Am I wrong???

  I agree that many do this to some degree, but not all. Also if Jesus is in fact God, as I believe, I would say He has the authority.
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  still_in74

  They said I seemed repentant, though because I had not been to meetings long enough, they thought showing my repentance through being DF'd would be the best way towards "true" repentance.

  They answered by saying they simply felt there was no way for me to show repentance except through the long haul of now coming back from being DF'd.

  "they felt"? who are they? what do "they" have to do with anything? Since when do "they" make the rules? Isnt it amazing that some elders will actually take scriptural authority and give it to themselves?

  "show repentance"? didnt you already quit and seek help? this isnt exactly cocaine,,, its prescription drugs which 50% of every cong on the planet is addicted to! Please!!!!!! They decided the best way for you to show repentance? Again, who the F--k are they?????

  dont send a letter, request to meet with them. Thank them for not being a "shelter from the wind" as they are supposed to be, and for helping you to realize that you were making a horrible mistake by wanting to come back. Thank them for helping you to see the "fleshly" side of the organization that supercedes scripture. Then tell them that you hope they continue to make gods of themselves to help others to see how distant from God the JW's really are.
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  Mary

  These are used to identify "Mind Control" techniques - per Dr. Lifton MD. So based upon what you are saying, and the relationship the WTBTS has with its members - you would be right. Although, thinking about it further, I guess many (if not all) religions meet this criteria - don't they??

  No, many religions do not meet this criteria although they may have in the past. I went to a Reformed Presbyterian Church several times and told the minister I didn't believe in the Trinity. Would I be excommunicated if I were a member? He looked at me as though I were crazy and said "no, why would you think that?" In a nutshell, noone there is forced to believe a doctrine on pain of excommunication. There are however, groups like the WTS that are high control groups and tell their members what to believe and how to live their lives. The Mormons, the Amish, Old Order Mennonite, Scientology and Islam to name a few. The point about the WTS is that they claim to be God's sole channel of communication----they should not fit this criteria at all, yet they fit it to a T. What does that tell you?

  For that matter, could these be applied to Jesus - and the nation of Israel's theocratic arrangement?

  To the nation of Israel's 'theocractic arrangment', yes. To Jesus----absolutely not.

  From these definitions of what "Mind Control" is, a great deal of religion is caught up in the same thing. Am I wrong???

  Yes you are wrong. Most religions today do not practice mind control like the Organization does. There's a good reason we refer to it as "the Borg". Besides, we are not talking about all other religions----this is about the WTS. Since they're always claiming to be better than any other religion on earth, they should be modelling themselves after Jesus. They unfortunately do not. Instead, they are a replica of the group of men they slam more than any other group in their writings: The Pharisees.
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  isaacaustin

  How often do appeals work to overturn dfings?
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  donny

  Johnny,

  I understand your frustration and confused state of mind. I was in the organization for ten years and at the time I was not looking for a way out. I just had some legitimate questions that I wanted answers to and the elders, instead of trying to show me the way, instead became paranoid and wanted to know why I wanted the evidence I was asking for.

  It boiled down to this. The Society claims to be sole channel to the way, the truth and the life in connecting with our Creator. Anybody or any group that claims such is making a monumental statement and that monumental statement requires monumental evidence. I said to the elders, "The Society teaches that Jesus sat down on his throne in October of 1914 and for the next 4.5 years he examined all of the groups claiming to follow him and in the spring of 1919, he selected the group of men who were associated with the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society.

  When you go back and examine the publications and statements of the Society during this time, all you see in one false prediction/statement after another. They taught the last days had begun in 1799 and that Chrust had returned in 1874. The "food at the proper time" released in 1917, The Finished Mystery, stated that Christendom would be wiped out in 1918 and the governments would fall in 1920. These are but a few of the scores of false statements that they were proclaiming at the time. Mind you, this were not statements/teachings they had borrowed from Christendom, these were manufactured and produced by the so-called Faithful and Discreet Slave.

  When the were unable to give me any reason to support their monumental claim to authority other than "We just are", I knew without a doubt this was not Gods Organization and ceased being associated with it. Leaving was a bit hard and you just don't wipe out the Society mentality overnight. It takes one a while to get there and likewise it takes one a while to clear out the "junk." I have been out for 16 years now and I have never ever regretted my decision. There is life outside of the Watchtower, and it's good.

  P.S. A few months ago, a person in my old congregation emailed me and tried to get me to reconsider. After calling me a bunch of names, he stated, " Unfortunately for you, you're too smart for your own good. You think too much." That was all he had in reply to the same question I listed above.

  Donny