Disfellowshiped Last Night - Elder Question

by johnnyc 91 Replies latest jw experiences

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  Vinny

  Johnny,
• 

  Vinny

  Johnny,
  
  The fact that you are considering all sides of the JW faith (and by being on JWD, mostly the critical side), is a good thing overall, IMO. I have always said my goal has been to get people interested in Jehovah's Witnesses to see BOTH SIDES of the facts. If after hearing the entire range of JW arguments and information from both sides, rather than just what THEY tell you, you still decide to become a JW then I have no problems with your doing so and can be happy enough for you. At least now you will know what you need to know to make a better decision altogether.
  
  
  My issue has been that most JW's live in some kind of bubble-like existence or state of mind. As did I. They usually do not know their own faith's past and history, especially when it comes to the critical areas. Most JW's have no idea about the many things I posted a few replies back on this thread. Like I said, I was an active elder. (I conducted the Theocratic Ministry School, was bookstudy overseer, conducted the WT Study many times, gave public talks all over, had parts on and opened prayer at conventions and much more). I own my own biz. I keep up with current events. I examine new purchases or heavy decisions carefully. Yet I never knew about many of the things I mentioned earlier that damage the WT Society's "One true faith", "God's Channel" claims and beliefs. And this is no accident, btw.
  
  
  Anything critical of JW faith is almost always considered by JW leaders as dangerous, apostate in nature, can cause spiritual shipwreck, from the devil etc etc. Is also why most JW's do not even want to know these things when given the opportunity to learn about them. They are TOLD to stay away from critical of JW sources.
  
  
  And then, when somebody like myself learns the facts as they truly are, and subsequently walks away from the religion altogether for sincere, well thought out, conscientious reasons, folks like me then get quarantined altogether by the JW shunning policy. Regardless of why or how I left you are shunned by all. Thereby limiting the damaging effect that such knowledge (even if true) can bring to the JW faith overall. This is not a healthy thing but it sure does work.
  
  
  Would you trust a used car salesman if HE told you his 10 year old car is in immaculate condition, purrs like a kitten etc, or would you also like to get a more neutral opinion, perhaps from an auto mechanic as well? Or how about an opinion from somebody that had the very same kind of vehicle for many years? Yet most JW bible studies and then baptized Witnesses usually only hear the JW side of things and that is it. This is an unhealthy and not a very balanced viewpoint Johnny. And this is what many, who leave the JW's, hope to help others overcome as well. TO SEE THE ENTIRE PICTURE HERE.
  
  
  You see, some here are biased against the JW faith. I know that. But keep in mind, many of these same people have lost so much in the process of leaving the JW religion. Please do not minimize this effect Johnny C. I for one have lost a child, a brother-in-law, numerous friendships, employees, my very reputation and much, MUCH more. Why such a steep penalty? What terrible thing did I do wrong here to lose so much as this? I simply disagreed with the JW Blood policy after learning how the organization was wrong on numerous things throughout their entire 100+ year history.
  
  
  I did not take any blood. I did not tell others to take blood. I simply DISAGREED with the JW blood and fractions policy, and could no longer with a clear conscience teach it to other people in my neighborhood. You can read my very specific reasons why I believe the JW blood policy is wrong by going to the link I posted in my earlier comment. But all you need to do is disagree and that alone can lead to being ousted and then shunned.
  
  
  My point is that even those here that do seem, to you, as 100 percent dogmatic against everything the WT Society says and does, have often lost so much along the way that one may then understand why bitterness can sometimes find its way in our hearts at times. When my wife cries (which is often) because she is no longer allowed to speak with her 23 year old son (my stepson, raised by me since he was six), and how we are not allowed to have any relationship with him at all, or his two and a half year old son (our grandson) solely because we left the JW faith, then hopefully you can see why I too at times can become upset and angry with the JW faith and its oftentimes truly destructive policies.
  
  
  We raised this son of ours. My wife gave birth to him, fed him and nurtured him for over 20 years. But because we no longer agree and support all JW teachings, this is what happens? Is this fair to you? Is this loving or Christian to you? We all know that it is not.
  
  
  Places like the JWD can be like a refuge for many of us that have been hurt by these unloving, unfair and yes unscriptural JW policies. (((ONLY OTHER EX-JW's))) can truly understand what it means to be labeled, judged, shunned and to lose loved ones like many of us do for usually very unreasonable, unjust reasons.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Remember too that you not only must accept all JW teachings, Johhny C, but you must TEACH THEM to all you meet in your territory. You must tell other families that they cannot accept blood even if death is the result, little children included. You must be willing to shun anybody that is DF'd or who DA's regardless of how or why they are no longer JW's. And this includes your very own family. And there is so much more than this.
  
  
  Just be sure you know and accept all of what's involved before going all the way into the JW faith. Spoken from experience here. And if you do that, then at least you can say you made the very best decision possible with all of the information available.
  
  
  And that is of course a good thing. Let me know if I can help.
  
  
  I wish you all the best,
  
  Vinny
• 

  Vinny

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/158368/2.ashx
  
  
  Here is that thread where I confronted Reniaa and then she left the building altogether. But Johnny C, the very same points can apply to you here as well. I hope if you have a few minutes you read our discussion.
  
  Take care,
  
  vinny
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  Cheetos

  Oh wow, once I found they want you (us) to crawl back begging with a letter stating how much reproche you (we) have heaped on the WTS by our being sinners it was then that I found that I did not need their bourgeois bullshit taking part in their conformity and slaving for Landrew.
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  isaacaustin

  It does sound harsh and I think you have grounds for appeal.

  I think some on here can give you info on how to do that.properly but if not goto an elder you know well and ask for details on how to Appeal formally they will be obliged to tell you,

  I know some that have appealed and had df's squashed.

  I wish you well

  Reniaa, or actually anyone....I am curious of df's that have been overturned. Is this often? What were the circumstances?
• 

  Mary

  johnnyc said: I started the other thread to talk about one thing specifically, and that was whether or not the GB was deliberate in their mistakes or just wrong - thats it. I started from the point of stating that I realize the WTBTS has been wrong. I was not even meaning to talk about whether they were God's agent or not. I found myself arguing against unbridled rage (with a couple people only). In reality, many agreed that the GB was simply mistaken - but a couple people held firm to the fact they are exercising mind control.

  My own take on the Governing Body is that when they initially wrote alot of their doctrines, they probably believed that what they were doing was right. However, as time goes on and their interpretations were either proven to be either wrong, or at least highly questionable, they either attempted to minimize what they had said, or, like many bullies, they came down on the rank and file with a rod of iron for daring to question them at all. To question them is to question Jesus or Jehovah-----it doesn't seem to matter that their interpretations of the scriptures have been proven false. They demand unquestioning loyalty and in the last several years, there has been even more emphasis on showing loyalty to the "Slave Class", as though a person's eternal salvation rests on showing blind faith in everything the Governing Body says, no matter how wrong they are. You question anything they say and you're branded as an "apostate". For a Christian to be denied the right to exercise their own conscience in matters of beliefs goes against the very basic principals of Christianity. Jesus certainly never promoted such an idea----in fact, it's what He preached against. For any man (or group of men) to tell others that they MUST believe whatever they deem as "truth", no matter how crazy some of their beliefs are, comes down to one thing: mind-control.

  The WTS might not have started out that way, but it is, unfortunately, what it has evolved in to.

  Which is fine if they want to have that opinion - but they seemed to be angered others agreed with me, and that I admittedly held my ground that if they had employed this "mind control", it would be truly known by now.

  Known to who? The average Witness? Surely you jest. The person who is under mind control is not aware that they are being controlled----that is the whole point of it: To control their minds without them even being aware of it. Here is a very interesting quote on the subject of mind control that might shed some light on the subject:

  "...During the 1960s, psychologists in the United States interviewed American soldiers returning from the war against North Korea. They focused in particular on those who had suffered a drastic change in their personality. Under the Communists, these soldiers experienced brainwashing. Later, other psychologists realised that some persons involved in cults experienced similar psychological changes. They recognized that cults used the same mechanism, which they termed mind control or mind reform. Therefore, it is very important to know and understand this technique in order to be able to dialogue with cult members. Otherwise, their unresponsiveness, a result of the mind control they underwent, could end up deceiving us. Even though it is true, we would never tell a Jehovah’s Witness, for example, that he is under mind control, because he wouldn’t know what we are talking about. On the contrary, he would feel attacked. Furthermore, by being on the defensive, he would think that the Catholic is the one under mind control..." http://www.cephasministry.com/mind_control.html

  Then, true to their stereotype, a couple members started making crazy claims of conspiracy and made misquotes of my statements trying to defame me. The reason I am saying all this, is because if they were making such good reasoning points, I doubt they would have resorted to such tactics. Regardless of your opinion, their actions show I struck a nerve.

  No, actually the reason we questioned you, is because of conflicting statements you've made that don't add up. Regardless, I believe many HAVE made good points regarding the Governing Body members. You certainly have not addressed many of these points and apparently do not see that if you measure them by their own yardstick, they fall under the category of being False Prophets-----something that they vigorously deny being, despite the overwhelming proof that they fit the description to a T. They have stated in their own literature that there have been those who specifically gave a date for The End but it did not come and that they were guilty of being False Prophets. Yet they refuse to apply this to themselves even though they have given several dates for The End, none of which produced Armageddon. Typical double-standard that is found amongst all high control groups, not just the WTS.
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  johnnyc

  Mary: I guess it all comes down to how you view mind control - I had a view that it was something needing to be purposefully and intently planned and executed, you view it as something that can happen passively without specific motive (as apposed to "implied motive"). The way you are viewing it then, I don't argue. But I do not believe they are having planning sessions to discuss the best way to implement mind control over the populous - like a country would implement a propaganda agenda (ie).
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  isaacaustin

  Mary: I guess it all comes down to how you view mind control - I had a view that it was something needing to be purposefully and intently planned and executed, you view it as something that can happen passively without specific motive (as apposed to "implied motive"). The way you are viewing it then, I don't argue. But I do not believe they are having planning sessions to discuss the best way to implement mind control over the populous - like a country would implement a propaganda agenda (ie). Their academic dishonesty on all their distinguishing- actually eccentric- doctrines shows they actually do plan the best way to control their followers.
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  leavingwt

  But I do not believe they are having planning sessions to discuss the best way to implement mind control over the populous - like a country would implement a propaganda agenda (ie).

  Exactly, JohnnyC.

  The guys at the top are "victims of victims", their minds having been controlled for (in most cases) decades -- before they became the leaders.

  As you point out, there is no evidence that it's an intentional implementation of something they knowingly believe to be harmful. They believe they are carrying out God's will. When you analyze the WT teachings and the internal pressures put upon members, they align with Robert J. Lifton's research. The two links I provided earlier are a fascinating read. They explain how Lifton's criteria are present in WT doctrine/policies, etc. The end result is of importance, not the motives, intention or sincerity of the leaders. The religious leaders that send suicide bombers into crowded pizzerias believe they are instruciing their followers according to God's will. We're concerned about the reality, not the motives and intentions.

  "Flipper" and "What-a-Coincidence" have posted many fine threads regarding some of the particulars.

  -LWT
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  isaacaustin

  to clarify what I said above...I beleive the GB turly beleive they are God's channel and truly beleive their doctrines. However, they will stop at nothing to uphold these...even resorting to dishonesty to prevent members from seeing things in a different light.