What will you do when the Great Tribulation Begins?

by Malkiel 259 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Rabbit

    The Great Tribulation for me...began in 1972 (invisibly, of course) when I got baptized. Then, started reg. pioneering ASAP to help 'save the world' from the loving wrath of Jehovah. I pioneered right thru the equally invisible Armageddon in '75.

    I married a JW and raised some little dubbies, who now all lovingly shun me, because I changed my mind. I'm not DF/DA, just "inactive" and "possibly an Aposssssstate" (rhymes with sssssssnake)

    My then wife and I almost let our newborn die, so Jah could smile, in refusing a blood transfusion. We got lucky -- with good doctors, not divine intervention.

    My JW mom was not so lucky. She died, needing a blood transfusion. Hemoglobin could have saved her, but that fraction was outlawed when she need it...later...too late... Some more of that Dim Light, Dark Light, Muddy, but NewLight came down that exclusive "conduit" into the GB's dirty ears....and Hemoglobin was 'OK', now a "conscience matter."

    Food & "Light"... at the Proper Time ? Nope. Truth IS Truth. Truth never changes, yet the Watchtower's "truth" changes all the time.

    They are blood-guilty. And THEY never say, "We're sorry."

    Now, that is the real Great Tribulation...


  • Malkiel

    ak -jeff-

    no other religion even comes close to adhering to Jesus' teachings. the aspect of neutrality in the political world alone sets us totally apart.

  • TopHat

    I am assumming you mean, If it begins in my lifetime?

    I will be here living on earth somewhere, what more can I say.

    The Watchtower org. as far I know doesn't teach anything about Freemanson's plans for the world of the UN. So I was taken aback by your statement.

    Malkiel? Are you a member of the Watchtower org.?

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    In 1919, these were the prevalent teachings of the group now known as Jehovah's Witnesses:

    1. That the invisible 'parousia' began in 1874
    2. That Charles T Russell was 'the faithful slave' personally
    3. Christ' reign began in 1873
    4. Millions now living [in 1918 when Rutherford began this campaign] would never die
    5. That 1799 was the beginning of the last days
    6. In 1844 the wise virgins went forth to meet the Bridegroom
    7. That 1873 was the end of 6000 years of human existence
    8. That 1874 was the beginning of the Great Tribulation and that it remained underway
    9. That 1878 was the beginning of Christ's ruler-ship from heaven
    10. That 1878 marked the fall of the Babylon the Great
    11. 1881 was the end of the 'calling' to heavenly life
    12. That in 1914 Jerusalem would begin to be raised to divine favor once again
    13. In 1914 the battle of Armageddon would be over
    14. In 1918 the churches would be destroyed wholesale
    15. In 1920 all nations would be destroyed
    16. That 2914 would mark the end of Jesus 1000 year kingship
    17. They celebrated Christmas
    18. They celebrated birthdays
    19. They believed Jesus died on a cross
    20. They trusted in pyramidology to confirm the date of Jesus' parousia

    This is just a partial list. Of course Jesus knew at that time that these teachings were wrong, that this so called 'slave' was poisoning the faithful with such teachings. I dare say that no other church had a longer list of failings and false ideas.

    So, if the assertion is incorrect - that is, if Jesus did not use the teachings to determine whom he would bless - then those who make such a claim have lied to those who listened to them.


  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff
    no other religion even comes close to adhering to Jesus' teachings. the aspect of neutrality in the political world alone sets us totally apart.

    I don't agree with that - I live near thousands of Amish who are actually far less involved in politics than are Jw's. There are many others. Still - this is not what the society says Jesus used as criteria.

    I really would like to see us stick to a topic, instead of distracting the argument by deflection of the point under discussion.


  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    I must sign off for now. My granddaughter is having a program at school. I will check later for your reply


  • sacolton
    no other religion even comes close to adhering to Jesus' teachings. the aspect of neutrality in the political world alone sets us totally apart.

    I hear that arguement alot. How about this ...

    No other religion even comes close to reproaching Jehovah's name, the aspect of numerous false prophecies since the beginning and to the present day that sets the Jehovah's Witnesses totally apart from other religions.

  • TD

    Hi Malkiel

    salvation is attained at a specific appointed time for us, if this is the case, we could very well not live to see this salvation. To say that Abel's (of Cain and Abel) life was over and done forever at the hands of his brother would be a very unfair thing. But this is where the resurrection comes into play. Abel will experience his salvation, even though he did not in his lifetime.

    I was speaking specifically of Christian salvation in JW theology. In the Bible, Abel was a righteous man, but he lived and died before Christ's sacrifice made the Christian "hope" possible. As you know, and I've mentioned before, the JW's draw their model of Christian salvation from Revelation 7 & 14. Only two groups experience salvation.

    1. The 144,000 stand upon (heavenly) mount Zion and sing a new song No one can master this song except those redeemed from the earth. (Revelation 14:3) 2. The great crowd stand before the throne in white robes, saying, "Salvation we owe to our God who is seated on the throne and to the lamb!" (Revelation 7:10)

    If I understand correctly, it seems like you're suggesting that it's okay if faithful Christians don't experience either of these two outcomes, in effect creating a third class of Christians with basically the same status as those that never knew Christ. First of all, I would question whether it is currently even possible for a third distinct class of Christians to formally exist in JW theology. (I've tried to keep the following quotes from recent JW publications.)

    Christians have one of two hopes:

    Jesus’ disciples entertain one of two hopes. First, a "little flock" numbering 144,000 has been gathered—anointed Christians of both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds who are "the Israel of God" and have the hope of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom. (Luke 12:32; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 14:1) Second, in the last days, "a great crowd" of "other sheep" have manifested themselves. These have the hope of living forever on a paradise earth. (Isaiah's Prophecy II pp. 241-242)

    First, Jesus gathers an anointed "little flock" who become joint heirs with him in the Kingdom of the heavens. (Luke 12:32) After this, "a great crowd" are gathered to survive "the great tribulation," coming out of it to inherit everlasting life in the realm of God’s Kingdom on earth.—Revelation 7:9, 14-17. (The Watchtower January 1, 1995 p.4)

    They also discerned that the Bible holds out two destinies—a heavenly one for the 144,000 anointed footstep followers of Christ and a paradise earth for an unnumbered "great crowd" of "other sheep." (Revelation 7:9; 14:1; John 10:16) (The Watchtower May 15, 1995 p.18)

    Therefore during the Christian era, the other sheep and great crowd are for all practical purposes, synonomous:

    Finally, in 1935 the other sheep living during the time of the end of this system of things were recognized as being the great crowd seen in vision by the apostle John. (Isaiah's Prophecy II p. 255)

    But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the "great crowd" ("great multitude," King James Version)refers to the "other sheep" who live during the time of the end. (The Watchtower February 15, 2003 p. 19)

    Those of the other sheep gathered in the time of the end will make up the "great crowd" destined to survive "the great tribulation," with the prospect of living forever on a paradise earth. (The Watchtower February 1, 2002 p.21)

    In a stirring talk on "The Great Multitude," delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford presented Scriptural proof that the modern-day "other sheep" are identical with that "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9. (John 10:16) (The Watchtower May 15, 2001 p. 15)

    Who are marked on the forehead by that "man"? "Other sheep," ones who have the hope of living eternally on a paradise earth. (John 10:16; Psalm 37:29) In 1935 this group of "other sheep" were discerned to be the "great crowd . . . out of all nations" seen in vision by the apostle John. (Revelation 7:9-14) (The Watchtower January 1, 2000 p. 12)

    A faithful Christian whose destiny is no different that those that lived before Christ is a contradiction in terms. This cuts to the heart of Christianity and what is allegedly the immediate benefit of the ransom:

    To whom does this righteous standing come? First, to his anointed followers. Because they exercise faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah declares them righteous with a view to adopting them as sons and making them joint heirs with Jesus. (Romans 5:19; 8:16, 17) Then, "a great crowd" of "other sheep" exercise faith in Jesus’ shed blood and enjoy a righteous standing with a view to being friends of God and survivors of Armageddon.—Revelation 7:9; 16:14, 16; John 10:16; James 2:23, 25. (Isaiah's Prophecy II p. 211)

    Notice that first comes the cleansing, then the blessings. This has proved true in our day. Back in 1919 the anointed remnant humbly submitted to being refined, and Jehovah "washed away" their uncleanness. Since then, "a great crowd" of other sheep have also allowed themselves to be cleansed by Jehovah. (Revelation 7:9) Thus cleansed, the remnant and their companions have been blessed—Jehovah has taken them into his protective care (Isaiah's Prophecy I pp. 71-72)

    ...And the immediate benefits of the ransom applies to only these two groups:

    Paul also explains that this reconciliation involves two distinct groups of individuals, namely, "the things in the heavens" and "the things upon the earth." (Colossians 1:19, 20; Ephesians 1:10) That first group consists of 144,000 Christians who are given the hope of serving as heavenly priests and ruling as kings over the earth with Christ Jesus. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 7:4; 14:1-3) Through them, the benefits of the ransom will gradually be applied to obedient mankind over a period of a thousand years.—1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Revelation 20:6; 21:3, 4. "The things upon the earth" are those individuals in line to enjoy perfect life in Paradise on earth. Revelation 7:9-17 describes them as "a great crowd" who will survive the coming "great tribulation." (Draw Close To Jehovah p. 146)

    Would anointed Christians be the only ones to enjoy the blessings promised to Abraham? No, for Jesus’ sacrifice benefits the whole world. (1 John 2:2) In time, Jehovah revealed that an unnumbered "great crowd" would survive the end of Satan’s system (Draw Close To Jehovah p. 197)

    ....And only these two groups render "sacred service" in the "spiritual temple"

    Since the first century C.E., Jehovah’s temple has actually been a spiritual one, with its holy of holies in the heavens and with a spiritual courtyard on earth, in which the anointed brothers of Jesus, the High Priest, serve. From the 1930’s onward, the "great crowd" have worshiped in association with the anointed remnant and are therefore said to serve ‘in God’s temple.’ (Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy p. 267)

    With consciences cleansed, anointed Christians render "sacred service to the living God." And so do the great crowd. Having cleansed their consciences through "the blood of the Lamb," they are in God’s great spiritual temple, "rendering him sacred service day and night."—Revelation 7:14, 15. (The Watchtower February 1, 1998 p. 21)

    Second, I would again question the point of being Christian, if one's destiny is no different than those who are not Christian.

    In the sermon on the mount, Jesus said, "Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake." (Matthew 5:11 NWT)

    How could this possibly make someone happy without a distinction between the faithful and unfaithful? (What does verse 12 say?) Think about how much of Jesus' direct promises would be invalidated by this concept.

    I also think it's a little late now to be tinkering with doctrine. The great crowd have already been clearly identified and it was at that point that the clock started ticking:

    Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the "great multitude," or "great crowd," was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves. At first there were hundreds, then thousands, later hundreds of thousands, and now there are millions spread around the globe. God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowd," including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth." (Survival p. 185)

  • Malkiel


    The US and British government is replete with 'open' members of masonry. Their goals, short and long term don't involve 'taking over' the UN, but rather influencing it. In many ways, depending on how you view both of these organizations, they can exist as one united entity as well as separate but complementing entities.

    why do you ask if i'm of the watchtower.org?


    it is a statement you hear a lot because it is true. NO OTHER organization even begins to serve Jehovah in the manner that the Bible stipulates. I would like to learn of an alternate one, sincerely. Researching such an alternative would be very enlightening indeed.


    i don't quite catch how i went off the subject. By the way, our preaching work (door to door (as Jesus stipulated) and in many other various forms is also unmatched by any other 'christian' organization. i know several amish as well, none of them 'witness' to others. i will take some time to read this information as you've requested.

    i too must leave for now, i appreciate your posts,

  • Malkiel

    one more thought-


    is it your understanding that any person dead before Jesus' death does not fit into either class, therefore never recieves salvation?

    if this is the case, (i apologize if you have to correct me again) then that is not what i've learned.

    in fact, the idea of conversing with Moses or Job or David in paradiese is one that is promoted often in the Watchtower pages. Jesus' ransom sacrifice was for all people. It was part of the 'coming of full circle' so to speak, that Genesis 3:16,17 states.

    All of these aforementioned men knew of the 'seed', the fact that the apostle Paul, a christian, speaks 'volumes' of them in Hebrews chapter 11 emphazises their salvation.

Share this