Let's Limit Young People , or Crazies from Killing Each Other in Schools

by flipper 103 Replies latest jw friends

Forscher

Contrast two incidents which both happened in Virginia.
A few years back A student carried a gun to the Appalachian college of law and opened fire on fellow students. He did kill several people but his attack was cut short by another student, an off duty police officer who was also armed. The response in Virginia was to was to make Virginia campuses into "gun free zones." Nobody, not even off duty police officers could carry a firearm on campus. The result was the Virginia Tech massacre with 32 people killed. Clearly the law made the situation worse than it was before!
The reason gun control doesn't work it that it is nothing but feel-good wishful thinking based on false assumptions. Check it out sometime, these shootings only happen on campuses where possession of firearms are forbidden. Those laws assume that either the potential shooters will follow the law, or that campus police will get to the incident in time to stop the rampage. I've got news for folks, but the police don't even enter the buildings until swat teams arrive on campus and go in. By that time it is all over!
Utah is the only state which allows legally registered students and faculty to carry firearms on campus. And we sure don't have a spate of mass killings there. And yet, Utah does ban gun possession in its malls, and they had an attempted mass shooting in one of those. Thank goodness an off duty policeman was illegally carrying a firearm on that occasion. He shut the shooter down.
The second amendment was added to the Constitution to serve a dual purpose. First, to ensure the viability of a militia as a check on the power of the central government and make a standing federal army unnecessary. Second, to ensure each individual citizen the means to defend himself and his home. All one has to do is look up the records of the time to find that out. I think the steady erosion of our personal rights running concurrently with the steady increase of limitations on our second amendment right to be armed bears me out on that one.
Gun control legislation has the effect of disarming those who abide by the law. Criminals, of whatever type, become emboldened because they know law abiding citizens are without the means to protect themselves. Even jolly old England is finding that out the hard way as violent crime there now out paces the U.S.A.. True, murder by firearms are down there, but knives work just as well (for that reason legislators there are considering a ban on knives).
The current rash of shootings in schools here also speak to something more insidious in our society than just the availability or lack thereof of firearms. Our kids have been raised by our secular society with a decided lack of value for humanity than we had before (evolution, after all, lowers humans to the level of just another animal with no special value). Violence is glorified in the popular culture with all the realism of Rome's Circus Maximus and put forward as the answer to one's problems. Morality and personal discipline are derided as out of date relics of a superstitious past because they are the hallmark of Judeo-Christian philosophy. Is it any wonder that we are reaping the whirlwind of decades of secular indoctrination?
Eugene Burdick, in his famous novel Fail Safe, commented that modern secular thinking was "just like that of a cur-dog. It ain't no good if you can't eat it, f%#$k it, or piss on it." and that is just what we are seeing, little cur-dogs who can't get what they want taking it out on their fellows in temper tantrums. They have no respect for human life and no tolerance for their own failure to have things their own way.
There is little which can be done under the circumstances beyond the following. Restore discipline in schools. Discipline has eroded in schools because of the implementation of wishful thinking by idiotic academics as school policies. Children who have no respect for the authority of teachers will, and currently do, run wild. Restoration of respect for authority in the schools, as well as respect for fellow students, will go a long way towards ending the current reign of terror by gun toters in schools. Stop interfering with the right of law abiding citizens to to be armed in whatever manner they choose as best for them wherever they go. Rest assured that not all will carry firearms, neither will we be subject to an "Ok Corral" situation as gun control advocates say we will. The experience of states which did so haven't experienced any such situation.
I have no problem with a background check to ensure that those who cannot responsibly handle firearms or other weapons don't get them.
Forscher
Homerovah the Almighty

Here is a fact to ponder on folks lots of guns out in society for the general public to use, there will be a lot of shootings by crazy people or criminals alike
its the easy availability of guns by gun shops or private sales and the amount of guns that are around in volumes.
It has to be noted too that America has the highest amount of guns per capita. than any other country in the world, by a long shot.
But here is another interesting fact in Canada a few years back the federal government started up strict gun legislation and guidelines for personal use
and it hasn't made a bit of difference in the amount of violent crimes by use of a firearms at all, a matter of fact the numbers have gone up particularly here in Vancouver.
The ironic thing about this situation here is that there is only 2 gun shops in the entire city of almost 3 million. The police say though most of the guns confiscated appeared to be
purchased from the illegal black market coming up through the states.
Maybe its not the guns that should be looked at but rather look at the people that are using them and find out why they are using them in the fashion that they are ?
Forscher

I'll bite Homerovah,
Here is a fact to ponder on folks lots of guns out in society for the general public to use, there will be a lot of shootings by crazy people or criminals alike
True, within certain limits. That statement assumes that crime will automatically go down if firearms are not available. All that it means is that shootings might go down. England adopted to what amounts to a ban on firearms a few years back. Shootings did go down. But murder rates stayed constant. So that means that instead of shooting people murderers are slicing and dicing them with knives and beating them to death with cudgels or their fists and feet or strangling them. Boy did that improve the situation!
its the easy availability of guns by gun shops or private sales and the amount of guns that are around in volumes.
What you are trying to say with that statement isn't real clear. but if it is a continuation of your theme that availability of firearms translates into higher violent crime rates credible research doesn't back you up.
It has to be noted too that America has the highest amount of guns per capita. than any other country in the world, by a long shot.
As I noted earlier, America doesn't have the highest violent crime rates in the world, in spite of that multitude of firearms.
The ironic thing about this situation here is that there is only 2 gun shops in the entire city of almost 3 million. The police say though most of the guns confiscated appeared to be purchased from the illegal black market coming up through the states.
I notice the word appeared in that statement qualifying it. Although I don't doubt some of those firearms came across the border, more than likely the majority are home grown weapons. Somehow I doubt your government is any more honest than mine when it comes to facts which make its own policies look bad.
Maybe its not the guns that should be looked at but rather look at the people that are using them and find out why they are using them in the fashion that they are ?
On that we both agree. I've already stated my opinion on the causes so I won't repeat myself.
respectfully
Forscher
looking_glass

For my own personal experience, I have found that those with mental illnesses are all different so you cannot say a person who is mentally ill would never harm someone else. That is a misnomer. My grandmother was diagnosed with schizophrenia (primary disease) and depression (secondary disease) which later became bi-polar disorder. When she heard voices she really believe them. Her meds needed to be changed from time to time and when those times happened, hell swallowed all of us. She was later institutionalized and I would visit her once a week until her death. There were people on her ward that on a normal day were fine. But twice I had very frightening experiences with people who clearly had gone off their meds or needed to be readjusted.
A couple of years ago a gun man went into a Chicago law firm and killed several people. I work at a law firm, after that incident they instituted further security measures. But the other day, we were dealing with some union matters and a couple of the union guys got into a fist fight. One guy ended up in the hospital w/ several broken bone and a concussion. At the end of the day, we cannot prevent someone who is bound and determined to do harm to do just that. Whether the act of harm is done with a gun, a knife or bare hands.
I am certainly not trying to minimize what happened. What I am trying to say, is that human nature is what it is. If people allow their demons (whether in their head or otherwise) to get the better of them, they will find a way to bring it down upon those around them.
Homerovah the Almighty

Thats very true in what you stated looking glass, but all due respect I don't think anyone here was trying to imply that all people that
are going through emotional and mental problems have a direct potential to be violent, that would be silly and irresponsible.
Warlock

Has anyone ever asked this question:
Why are these shootings occuring at schools?
Warlock
Homerovah the Almighty

But you would have to admit though Forscher that guns do make for a easy killing if you are going to kill someone and a quick and easy get away
is a factor too.
Here is something else that needs to be considered with such a high volume of guns openly available to the public this also makes it a lot easier for someone
who wants to commit a crime to put that agenda in motion just as that kid did. Now would he'd been able to kill and injure as many people in such a short amount of time
as he did with his three guns, let say if he lived and attended a college in England ?
A gun as we know is a very proficient and deadly weapon when it is used properly.
Homerovah the Almighty

The other incident last year at Georgia Tec. where the student bought guns with the intension of a planning a attack is very similar to what happened
this week, different people of course with different emotional problems. The point to consider is would they have accomplished their scheme if there wasn't
a gun shop near where they lived that may have made them incite the idea to get even with a shooting spree ?
flipper

Lots of interesting comments ! Thanks for your responses. I'll respond to each one of you.

WITNESS 007- Your government in Australia had a " guns for money buy back system " ? That's really good. Sounds like it helped limit the mass shootings. Interesting.

HILLBILLY- I agree with you. Guns are not the problem. Crazy people using guns are the problem - and crazy people having access to the guns. Kids don't get medicated because they are bored. They are usually diagnosed with a chemical imbalance , or attention deficit disorder , resulting in depression in which they need anti-depressant medications. If more people took seriously how dangerous chemical imbalances and mental illness is - perhaps this last year lives could have been saved at Virginia Tech University where the man killed 30 something people. He had a history of mental illness, was even institutionalized for awhile , but slipped through the cracks - because no one took it seriously enough. The dude should have been locked up away from people where he couldn't get to them. Not all people owning guns are as stable as you Hillbilly .

GREGOR- I agree people should be allowed to protect themselves. It is true none of us can foresee when crazy people will murder and attack. In fact the nut job in Illinois didn't even fit the " profile " according to news reports of a murderer . I feel if our country was spending less money on Mr. Bush's war in Iraq for business oil profits - perhaps then we could afford to have all college and universities in this country provide " armed " security and police protection on every college campus.

FORSCHER- I agree with you that all states should implement laws to have armed security guards or armed police protection at every college and university campus. And that these security guards and police should have the go ahead to shoot if a person is attacking someone in an armed manner. I too feel it was stupid that the police didn't do anything until SWAT teams went in at Virginia University. Then it was too late. Kids were dead. But for normal citizens a background check should be done.

HOMEROVAH- I agree that we need to find out where people are getting guns if they are getting them on the black market. If they aren't getting them in gun shops , it also could be private homes. But there needs to be better checks on mental health of prospective gun owners is my point of contention.

LOOKING GLASS- Very true points you make. If people want to hurt each other enough, you are right, they will use fists, knives, guns or whatever to do it. There are a lot of troubled people on the planet who are wound up tighter than a jet propelled rubber band stress wise and emotionally - just waiting to snap. For some of them all it takes is just one more negative thing to happen in their lives - to push them over the edge .

WARLOCK- Good question you ask. Why are these shootings at schools occurring ? Well, I'll give you my humble analogy- I feel due to the stress in society of making a living, the desperation some people feel is more intense than others, and the hopelessness they experience is too much for them to bear at times. Then if you throw depression in with that, or chemical imbalance , you have a real volatile mixture ! So, feeling oppressed they take it out on innocent people unjustly without thinking about what they are even doing. The fact that these people are crazy , many times is a fault of our own society and lack of attention we have given to the mental health care system. People fall through the cracks who need help - then you see them on CNN news after killing someone. One of the tax cuts in California years ago was to cut funds to mental hospitals . It ended up putting thousands of people with imbalances on the streets , as they had nowhere to go. If this country got down to the root of the problems - perhaps more lives could be saved by preventive mental health care so people don't get to this breaking point in the first place ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
inkling

from my cold, dead, mentally deranged and instable hands!
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Let's Limit Young People , or Crazies from Killing Each Other in Schools

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