Bethel layoffs in 2008 - 300+ and counting

by sir82 139 Replies latest jw friends

  • mcsemike
    mcsemike

    PropLog2: All it took for you to give up and leave was you posting bullshit excuses for the WT and then getting your ass kicked to the curb? Gee, you could have saved yourself the trouble. You were warned that you'd find no sympathy here. Your motto seems to be: "My religion, right or wrong, but my religion." How narrowminded can you be?? I've read every single book the WT printed since 1925. I have Studies in the Scriptures and read that. But we'll leave Russell's and Rutherford's psychopathic behavior for another thread.

    The attacks didn't have to be personal. YOU made them personal when you belittled our pain, didn't believe our stories about being abused, and then attacked us by saying it was OUR fault. Typical WT brainwashing. Any freshman Psych student can read you plain as day. You are right, discussions won't be productive when you have already made up your mind that the WT is right and God will fix things in his own due time. But in the OT, many prophets scolded kings and pointed out corruption without a direct order from Jehovah. So "new light" (which is a bunch of crap anyway) doesn't always come from the top down. It can be a sister's idea or even a worldly person showing the WT how it can be more efficient.

    I said I had a temper when children were being hurt. I would become angry and I'd rush up and take out the attacker. If you would not do even that, then you are the sick one. If I really had a mental problem with my temper, then how do you explain the analytical posts I have put here? And don't forget: Jehovah and Jesus got angry many times when seeing depravity involving children. So why can't I? I had many elders tell me they would have killed the abuser no matter what happened to them for doing so. Many "sisters" and women I worked with offered to load my gun. If I had a temper, at least 2 dozen people would be dead today. Maybe even your type. I think I've done a very good job at containing my anger considering the treachery, lies, brutality, and hypocrisy I've seen and endured and was told if I opened my mouth, I wouldn't see my daughter again. I told the committee if they taught her to avoid me for the rest of my life, they would pay for it with their lives. That is GOD'S promise, not any threat of mine. Predicting or reminding wicked JW's about what will happen to them according to the Bible is not the same as me saying I'm driving from Florida to NJ and will kill 8 men. Maybe if you wife, child, or mother were raped and you were told that you'd be DF'd if you went to the police, you might grow up and see the horrific injustice in this cult. You should watch the Silent Lambs videos where elders act so snotty when interviewed on camera that even the crew wanted to smack him in the face.

    Your implication is that you are a civilized human being, and I must not be one because I become righteously indignant or angry when I see the helpless beint abused. You are NOT civilized if you defend the WT. I will go on record now as saying that any one who knows the full story of the WT's molestation and coverup actions and does NOT leave that cult, is a disgusting human being and morally they bear much of the blame. This makes THEM a goat, not the helpless children.

    NO one tried to impress you with chest beating. If I was going to come after you, I certainly wouldn't warn you first. (Try Sicilian thinking.) But if you are over 6j0, you can't be that tough. If you ever share any part of the blame for the abuse problem, or perhaps some father whose child was raped meets up with you, you might get your just desserts. Maybe a "beating" might occur. And don't preach to me about violence. Isn't Armageddon all about violence?? Six billion people killed because they truly didn't understand what the hell the JW at their door was talking about. You call that loving? How much violence would occur to kill six billion people??

    You think that be isolating a few of my momentary lapses that you can peg me as the nut, and then show yourself as the "great teacher whose students refused to listen." You have NOTHING to teach anyone on this board. We've seen and heard it all. Try going to Silent Lambs and spew your manure. They will rip you apart. And you would deserve it.

    Child abuse is the worst crime in the world. It scars an innocent life forever. Some victims commit suicide because they think it was their fault. Some parents commit suicide because they blame themselves. The WT is a bunch of wussies hiding behind the laws of each state. When the WT wants its rights, they sue you to death. but when they are wrong, they lie in court, drag out cases, or pay off victims quietly since they know they are wrong.

    And what the hell do you mean "acquiescence" by those on the board??? Are you a lunatic??? The ones doing the acquiescence are the JW rank and file for not speaking to those who tried to warn them to save their kids. The GB also is guilty because they bury their heads and refuse to listen to reason. (No, they don't bury them in the sand.)

    "Loud silence"? You got trounced every time you opened your stupid mouth with more bullshit. Why don't you visit Patterson and stand in the field with the jackasses and preach to them. I'm sure the farmers could use the manure you produce. The cows would probably die from cognitive dissonance. (Please feel free to look up any words that are two syllables or longer. We want you to understand these points.) Oh, and if you want to reply, maybe you shouldn't use the Internet anymore. Take a box of crayons and write your note and send it to the WT. Tell them how "mean" everyone's been to you.

    I wonder how you'd react if your wife or daughter were raped? I doubt it very much that you'd calmly call the police and say "We'll leave it in Jehovah's hands." How do you know that the current anti-WT crusade is not Jehovah's way to clean house?

    I'm not going to celebrate. I gave it to you good because you asked for it. I would have been your friend if you had asked nicely and looked up the evidence. The people on this board are some of the most intelligent and emotionally mature people I know. A soul here in pain who zaps you a few times is to be expected when they've had to listen you your kind before and also to know that the conventions are trashing all people who don't "toe the line". This isn't the Marines, buddy. This was not the way Jesus taught. I think you're annoyed because you lost, you didn't expect so many people to beat you, and you didn't realize the evidence we had that allowed us to beat you. That's jealousy and pride. Not our problem, but YOURS!!!!

    I don't know who would want your posts unless we needed a few JW sheep comments to show the world how brainwashed you all are. Again, if you had been nice, you might have been helped in a more kindly way. But when you attack our reasons for leaving and you defend the WT, you get no sympathy.

    You said the brothers should be given the benefit of the doubt. Not when I have 2 witnesses. I'd be DF'd with 2 witnesses, so why aren't the elders removed if I have 2 witnesses? The old double standard. The WT lies again.

    I'll finish with this. I can become angry when necessary. God and Jesus it. I told the elders and I gave fair public warning. My daughter has a 25% chance of dying before she turns 25 years old (in a few years) whether suicide (which many victims do) or heart damage from anorexia (it killed Karen Carpenter). If something happens to that child, there will be blood. You can get on your moral high horse and point and say "See, he's crazy, he's a murderer." Perhaps you should read the old testament where whole tribes were killed for the sins of one person. And Armageddon is no picnic, yet the JW's are just drooling for it to start so that 999 people out of 1,000 will die and the JW's will get their revenge for having had doors slammed in their faces for 130 years. Doesn't sound very Christian to me. And don't say I don't sound Christian, because I'm NOT. I'm an agnostic and will never change.

    Good luck to you proplog2. You want to stir up a hornet's nest? Go to Iran and preach your nonsense. Your troubles will all be over and you will be at peace. (Dead.)

  • moshe
    moshe

    proplog2:

    Maybe some kind of disaster is going to hit New York City in the near future. Only a hateful person would use such ordinary behavior to slam JW's. Kind of like Judas worrying about the money box.

    and in 2002

    I will be dropping in again and again to remind everyone that an atomic weapon IS going to go off in New York. Soon... It will probably be a Russian device - not a dirty nuke. The claim will be made that it was done by terrorists. But it will really be the Mad Bomber-Putin in his effort to reallign the world.

    Did the CIA find the bomb? Was it just a dud? Can I quit worrying about it now? How long is "Soon" anyway?

  • mcsemike
    mcsemike

    To proplog2:

    I found a few more of your "gems" slipped into your comments. Number 2276 to be exact. You said that if someone leaving Bethel had a mental breakdown, is that Bethel's fault?? YES, IT IS! Those people should get pensions. Most of them had at least a verbal understanding (based on past history) that older ones would be cared for. Bethel doesn't understand the world, so they can't prepare those they "fire" to live in it. They should hire a professional counselor/headhunter to help with jobs, but they are too cheap. "Jehovah will provide." Yeah, right. I also don't understand why the GB shouldn't be "experts" on the world and all its problems. They are so conceited it isn't funny. They know everything about everything. And if one GB member doesn't, they will pull their usuall stunts by misquoting reputable sources and truly "PUTTING THE BIGGEST SPIN IN THE WORLD ON HOW THEY TWIST WHAT THE WORLDLY PEOPLE SAID AND MEANT." The WT is being sued in several courts for "journalistic dishonesty", "taking things out of context", and outright lying. Really, if you just faithfully adhere to the WT's ever-changing lies and deceptions, you will automatically do some "spinning" since that's what they do most and they do it so well.

    They kept Freddie Franz till he died, although he was a total invalid. Is his life more important than anyone else's. Jesus said "you are all equal". He also said there was no clergy class, but the WT clearly has one. And if programs to help these people fail, perhaps it is the fault of those who wrote the program or implemented it. Bethel may have a few "doctors" on staff, but their views are slanted in favor of the WT and everyone knows that. If you don't, you are blind.

    You've had "low points"? NEWS FLASH----- A child who has been molested doesn't consider that episode in their lives as a "low point". Are you for real??? Those scars remain forever. I know firsthand. If you're so smart, post the proper clinical name for this condition and quote TWO sources (who have at least a Doctorate degree) who have published a thesis on empirical studies in the field. (If you don't know what I just wrote, then quit now. You won't cut it.)

    Yes, there should be a fund. But the WT should be paying it. The Amish don't have to pay Social Security because they have sworn that they will never attempt to collect it. Does the WT deduct SS from the Bethel workers so that they have a pension when they hit 65?? I'd like to see that in print.

    Sometimes feelings DO obscure logical thinking. But not in this case. Common sense, feelings of fair play, and the things Jesus taught should convince the WT that these workers deserve financial assistance when they leave. Most mature people have both feelings AND logical thinking and they can put each in its proper place. Those two concepts are "symbiotic" to some degree and an intelligent person can use both of them to the proper degree.

    I know dozens of Bethel workers. I met most of the Governing Body. During the lunch break at Monroe, NY, I played a concert of kingdom songs for the GB and other visitors from Bethel. I also performed on the piano in the main lobby at Bethel. These same men could clap and appreciate the beauty of music (that God gave us) and told me I should be thankful for my gift (part of it was a gift, the rest was MY hard work, ten hours practicing a day for 5 years.) If I had joined the orchestra, which they used at CO meetings, they would have used me. The second I got arthritis and couldn't play, I'll bet you anything I'd be asked to leave with NO PENSION.

    As to comparing the WT to wicked cults, Nazis, Jim Jones's group, the KKK, or the Mafia is NOT unfair. They ALL punish defectors. All of them try to various degrees to eliminate those who try to quit or leave or expose them. The Mafia rarely allows someone to "retire". Neither does the WT. A slow fade might work, but they usually hunt you down and demand you come back or get DF'd. You might be allowed to DA yourself, but you lose your entire family as I did. It is NOT violence to look forward to the destruction of wicked men and corrupt groups. I have heard hundreds of JW's at the door, after the call went badly, that "well, there's another sheep, I hope I get this house after Armageddon." A very sad attitude indeed. And before you say it's the minority, you are wrong. I was a Book Study Conductor, accounts servant, library servant, steady Watchtower reader, the the "asst. elder" who was always left in charge when the elders went out of town on a traing class. I was a public speaker and scheduled them. Doing all these jobs, I was able to pick up that most publishers joined the WT due to their OWN psychological weaknesses and needs at the time. They were promised all their questions would be answered later, but they never were. Then, if you asked them later, you were an apostate. You objected to name calling and character assassination by those here on the board, but the WT has been far more cruel and unfair in its attacks on religions and individuals. Yet they do the very same things themselves. HYPOCRITES!!!!!!

    Grossly unfair to compare them to Nazis? Ha ha ha. That is really a joke. I have seen elders hunt down individuals, trying to visit their home and snooping around because the faithful wife told the elders that her husband was reading C of C by Franz. I bought that book and was reading it. My wife asked me to keep it in my car. And of course, she wouldn't ride in my car. Was it radioactive? I was the Senior Instructor at the largest computer school in all of central NJ. One "brother" heard me mention the book and wrote a letter to the congregation that had my pub. cards. (I was inactive.) They brought me up on charges TWO YEARS AFTER THAT LETTER. I would think a grown man had better things to do with his time than squeal llike a rat-weasel just because I wanted to hear the other side of the coin. Doesn't the WT encourage people to examine their religion? But once you are a JW, you no longer have that right.

    So now we have to find a way to tell the publishers that a certain "brother" is an animal who should be executed. Child molesters rarely change, even to become a JW. One out of 200,000 change to normal. The rest are pedophiles the rest of their lives. But the elders don't warn the flock. This sounds a lot like some of the bad organiztions that you mentioned above.

    I'm glad Breaking Away made that statement. I also agree with him. Now, how many people have to agree with him before you might start thinking that YOU could be wrong. You really are conceited. You said I was, but you take the cake. I can back up my claims about the WT, about the things I could have done with my life, etc. What are you??

    Any time you or any other JW wants to have a radio or TV debate, just post it and I'll find you. We'll see who has the truth, but more importantly, I'll save thousands of lives from being ruined by the hubris displayed by the WT and its robot clones. Don't get me wrong. Many of the rank and file are kind and decent (mostly the women). But the elders on up are crooks. If the sheep follow, they bear the blame also.

    Good luck trying to defend the WT's latest "spin the big wheel on the Price is Right" and let's all obey whatever new law comes up for today. Don't worry, we'll cook up a feeble defense for the new belief in the back kitchen. Oh, no. Fred Franz is gone. NOW who is going to come up with the "new light"? I'm sorry. I forgot. Back in the time Russell died, they said he was still alive directing the work. He lived near a star system called the Pleiades. Soon, it may be possible for the GB to take trips there to bring back new light.

    How does this relate to the Bethel issue? Simply this. If the young come to Bethel with the clear understanding that they can stay for life if they behave and do their work, that promise should be honored. My point was to show the assinine conduct and outright lying about the WT's past beliefs and behavior. So all the young should think very hard about going to Bethel. If they have money or wealthy parents, then they could be thrown out with little damage. But most don't have that luxury.

    Proplog2: I wonder how much of this you knew when you got baptized. Most didn' t know any of it. Only I did in our whole circuit due to my library. If you are the sincere person I wanted to hope you were and you check these things out, change your mind and apologize on this board, I will be your friend for life. I'm not the person you think I am. I use sarcasm because it's the most effective tool to display illogical statements. I never mean outright cruelty and it truly would pain me if you suffered. You might come back with something about a tough skin and it will take more than I can dish out to hurt you. I hope you don't. I hold a royal flush and if you play cards, that is the very top hand. I cannot be beaten by the WT's reasoning. I rest my case.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    mcsemike..You may hold a Royal Flush,but you still Lose..Not because your wrong.....A guy like Proplog2 dosen`t give a Rat`s ass about JW`s.."Let them suffer because of the WBT$,they deserve it"..Thats his attitude........The fact is he may never have been a JW..I`ve come across Crazy`s like that,on this board..Can`t be bothered to do a dam thing for the WBT$..Give every JW that doese`nt agree with the WBT$,a bad time..And..Defend the corruption of the WBT$,with their dieing breath..Crazy`s!!..And..Theres no reasoning with them............An interesting thing I learned about Proplog2 on this Thread..He kept the doors in his home open so his children wouldn`t molest each other..I asked him where they learned that..I also asked him,if he thought he personally needed the protection of the "2Witness Rule" for child molesting..He certainly defends the rule..Could there be a personal reason for that??....He didn`t like my questions,as you can read for yourself on this thread............Clint Eastwood...OUTLAW

  • mcsemike
    mcsemike

    Thanks Outlaw: Those are good points and I will certainly keep them in mind.

  • caliber
    caliber

    blondie ,

    I really enjoy your posts for clear , common sense, down to earth answers ! I always scroll down to find your face for the voice of clear reason !

    thanks Caliber ,

  • Happy Harvester
    Happy Harvester

    Welcome to corporate religion.

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot

    I have not been on JWD very much....as I have been busy on another board debating against WTS peculiar policies and unscriptural teachings. I happened to log on today and see this thread.

    I want to publically state how deeply sorry I am to all that mcsemike (and his poor daughter) have experienced at the hands of this hideous and disgusting cult.

    hugs

    Annie

  • BreakingAway
    BreakingAway

    I wanted to reply to this once again.First of all, I want to say I'm sorry for what Mcsemike's daughter and of course what he and his family have been through.It is in no uncertain terms, a tragedy.Proplog calling this crime "unfortunate" is clear evidence that he is disconnected from reality, to say the least, and is downright hurtful.

    I also wanted to expound a bit more on the discussion about "Organizations" which he thought was "grossly unfair".Proplog has on many occassions (read, all the time) made the blanket accusation that criticizing the GB ,FDS,Leadership,etc. is the same as picking on all JW's, simply looking for flaws.This, despite the fact that it has repeatedly been made clear to him that there is a big difference between the R&F JW's and the Leadership.So when he said : "Organizations are collectives of human beings and they should at least be respected. Criticize their teachings but it is of no value to call them names." This is clearly a blanket statement.There was no mention of relgious organizations, simply organizations.So I made the comparison with various "organizations" for several reasons.

    1.Making blanket statements when you accuse others of this same thing will get you called on it.

    2.I knew this would cause him to "spin" the issue and point the finger at the individual that had called him on it.This has been the case with many subjects and results in an attempt to discredit the person.

    3.There are indeed idelologies and characterisitcs of the previously mentioned organizations that are clearly reflected in JW life and enforcement.Let's just take what most would obviously consider to be the most controversial or extreme , the Nazis.Now, obviously, when one thinks of Nazis they think of their terrible campaign of genocide.But it was their idelogies, and the publics acceptance, that caused them to flourish and carry out their horrible crimes.Hitler could NOT have carried out this campaign on his own.His "success" was the result of the support of others.Many of Hitler's beliefs were taken from the Bible and were supported by relgious leaders, which , in turn, led to greater acceptance.True, his ideologies were an amalgam of teachings and he used research into the occult or anything that he felt could accomplish his goals but the Bible's "influence" which he twisted is undeniable.

    The Cult of Personality is reflected in many organizations, specifically and naturally, Cults.The personalities of their followers change.They do things they never would have even considered before.Things they would regret later in life.Good people turned to doing bad things.Nazism didn't start with murder as the goal, it "evolved" into that and thus the acceptance was gradual.The current environment and propaganda brought about such acceptance.Of course, not all went along with the program.Children turned in parents, parents turned in children, mates turned in each other,brother turned in brother, etc.And for what reason ? Because they were considered a "threat" to "Mother", the Motherland.For the sake of self preservation.Nobody knew who to trust.Does any of this sound familiar ? Do you go to the store and still look over your should for fear of being "turned in" or harassed ? How about getting busted and ostracized because of being "caught" at an R rated movie or buying a pack of cigarettes ? or for taking blood, or questioning doctrine or any number of other things.

    A person "exposed" in Nazi Germany would likely lose their life.Today though among the organization the penalty might be described as a "living death".Having been shunned and excommunicated by ones mate, children, parents,friends, loss of job, etc. some have sadly even taken their own life ! All for the sake of protecting a "pure" race....er..religion.The death of billions is proclaimed as the only solution to keep the New World Order of a thousand years,and all eternity, clean and only Jehovah's Witnesses will survive.Join or Die.All persons, "threats", are encouraged to be turned in to prevent the organization from being "tainted".It is said that they are to be "won over" first.That is, to be reindoctrinated to accept the teachings from which they have strayed.If this fails, they are put in line for destruction.

    It has to be noted in all fairness that the above mentioned characteristics are NOT exclusive to JW leadership and lifestyle but to cults or "cult-like" groups in general.However, that doesn't make them any less dangerous.Obviously, those here feel for those who are currently JW's and would hope that they too could be set free.It's a step they must take but there are also many working hard to open the eyes of those we care so much about.My intention is most certainly NOT to come across as controversial or offensive.I'd imagine many years ago while still a Witness I would have been quite offended by such "accusations".However, I think I still would have tried to see if their really was any truth to these things.Many act happy, but there's so much depression, poor health,emotional and other mental problems that are indicative of serious internal conflict.

    Such entities get their power from the people.

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

    We made a decison.Many have, and many are, withdrawing their support.


  • sf
    sf

    I will go on record now as saying that any one who knows the full story of the WT's molestation and coverup actions and does NOT leave that cult,is a disgusting human being and morally they bear much of the blame. This makes THEM a goat, not the helpless children.

    I will go on record seconding this. With emphasis on ANYONE.

    You know who you are.

    {{{ mike and your daughter }}}

    Looking forward to your book too!

    sKally

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