If the bible is from God then explain this!

by Anti-Christ 104 Replies latest jw experiences

Mad

Abandoned wrote: "I'm not antichrist. Do I not qualify to hear your explanation of why God was so violent in the old testament either? Me thinks your reticence has more to do with you not having a clue as to why he comes off as such a bloodthirsty monster than that the wrong person asked for your opinion."
Mad writes: Think what you wish- and what do you mean by qualify? Do you REALLY want to look at it from another angle? I was under the impression that you are just a ridiculer, too! Nothing you have said indicates you are looking at this as a question...
Mad

LtCmd wrote: "
Stealth wrote:"Welcome Anti-Christ.The bible is nothing more than a collection of stories and fables written by, and collected by, men.A fairy tale."
Mad writes: Thus states the 'Jedi Master'....I'm convinced! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO!
Would you mind explaining why what stealth said was any less convincing than when you said:
The Book of Mormon is a farce to anyone who has a little intelligence, The Bible comes from beyond Man to anyone with the same.
Lore writes: Thus states the 54 year old... I'm convinced! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO! Those arguments sound pretty much the same, except you managed to throw in a couple insults.
Mad writes: Good one, Lore! I love you, man! (Woman?Teenager?) The Bible is backed up by Science (the exceptions being the Theory of Evolution and Church Teachings, like the 6 24-hour Creative Days Dogma), and by the very principles weaved thruout all the books. The Book of Mormon is a counterfeit of the Bible- and Mormons take its word over the Bible; they HAVE to since it is contradicted so much by it! If the Bible WERE just a fairytale, it's people would have never existed, it's words would not inspire just about all who read it, and since it was written LONG before the Dark Ages- science would contradict almost everything it said, as it does with all the other 'sacred' writings from those ancient times! (This is the best I can paraphrase...)
Note that the entire topic is about the atrocities commited by god in the bible, you have so far made four posts in a row, talking about everything but that! Avoiding the question are you? Well I don't blame you, it's like trying to defend Hitler. Unfortunately though you seem to think that insulting those who disagree with you, or questioning their motives counts as a defense. LtCmd.Lore
Mad writes: It never cease to amaze me how upset people like you- who CONSTANTLY insult & bash- can't take it when someone throws a little your way! The answer to those "atrocities" is not going to make ANY sense to any that don't KNOW the Bible as being from God- so why answer? Jesus didn't answer Pilate...I will give you a hint: Those were NOT "atrocities"- except against extremely wicked cultures & societies in that region.
Mad

Finally wrote: "YES!!! We want to learn! We're sitting on the edge of our seats, waiting for you to impart some pearls of wisdom to us! But please don't be offended if no one holds their breath."
Mad writes: I'm offended! PLEASE hold your breath!
LtCmd.Lore

Wow that's a lot to respond to...
The reason I'm asking you this is to determine if I CAN answer your doubt; I can from the Bible- but that will be meaningless to you if you don't believe it's true!
I think I understand, but, even though I'm an atheist, when I get into a biblical discussion with theists I generally proceed under the premise that the bible is true. (A sort of beat them at their own game kind of thing.) In other words, although I don't believe the bible, I'll set that aside in this situation for the sake of the discussion.
Have you studied the Bible? Not just what it says- but it's background?
Well sort of, I was a dedicated Jehovahs Witness for 15 years, and I spent three days a week learning about what the Bible says, including it's background. Granted, they have some pretty strange ideas about it, but I do understand what your getting at.
Mad writes: It never cease to amaze me how upset people like you- who CONSTANTLY insult & bash- can't take it when someone throws a little your way! The answer to those "atrocities" is not going to make ANY sense to any that don't KNOW the Bible as being from God- so why answer? Jesus didn't answer Pilate...I will give you a hint: Those were NOT "atrocities"- except against extremely wicked cultures & societies in that region.
Not so fast, generalize about 'us people' all you want, I haven't insulted anyone yet!
Also about the whole not answering people who don't already think you're correct stuff: That's a very strange way of thinking... I'm an atheist, but I don't refuse to discuss my beliefs with theists...
Mad writes: Good one, Lore! I love you, man! (Woman?Teenager?) The Bible is backed up by Science (the exceptions being the Theory of Evolution and Church Teachings, like the 6 24-hour Creative Days Dogma), and by the very principles weaved thruout all the books. The Book of Mormon is a counterfeit of the Bible- and Mormons take its word over the Bible; they HAVE to since it is contradicted so much by it! If the Bible WERE just a fairytale, it's people would have never existed, it's words would not inspire just about all who read it, and since it was written LONG before the Dark Ages- science would contradict almost everything it said, as it does with all the other 'sacred' writings from those ancient times! (This is the best I can paraphrase...)
Thank you, and I'm a 17 year old male. I've never read the book of mormon but it sounds like you did so I'll take your word for it.___ "If the Bible WERE just a fairytale, it's people would have never existed," Sorry I just couldn't let that go... but if I were to sit down and write a story about president Bush having a face to face discussion with god, in which god punished Bush for some sins with hurricane Katrina... that story would contain characters that existed. And in the future somebody could confirm that president Bush existed and that hurricane katrina took place, but the story would still be false.
(I never wanted to believe they were! The facts showed me otherwise, then I started appreciating its words. I could be wrong- altho I can't see ANY reason to believe that- and I'm ALWAYS looking!)
I hope you really mean that... if so I would assume that you will not ignore me simply because I don't already think all your beliefs are correct. I know what it's like to completely change your beliefs, I did just under two years ago, (except I went from believing the bible to not believing it.) There is a big barrier between theists and atheists, when I was a Witness I though all atheists were arrogant idiots for not seeing the obvious, but now that I'm an atheist I feel pretty much the same way about theists... and since I live in a world where the majority of the population believe in god, I am attempting to see things both ways when it comes up. OK I'm done ranting now. LtCmd.Lore
Abandoned

Abandoned wrote:"I'm not antichrist. Do I not qualify to hear your explanation of why God was so violent in the old testament either? Me thinks your reticence has more to do with you not having a clue as to why he comes off as such a bloodthirsty monster than that the wrong person asked for your opinion?
Mad writes: You simply appear (based on your statement) to be one who simply wants to bash- rather than learn.
Who am I bashing? Your god? Is speaking the truth bashing? Does not the bible teach that the god it promotes destroyed a whole age of people (a grotesque act of violence) because he was upset with all the violence? Did his act of violence raise those sinners up to his level or lower him down to theirs? How does immitating someone's bad behavior, only on a grander scale, inspire respect in anyone?
Plus, you still haven't answered my question. Why was god so violent in the old testament? How can I learn, as you say, if you don't answer the question?
nvrgnbk

Hello Abandoned my friend,
I hope all's well with Kerri.
You replied to Brother Mad Brother:
How can I learn, as you say, if you don't answer the question?
Don't expect too many answers from Mad. We all know he's here because he has questions of his own.
Hoping Mad finds whatever it is that he's looking for on an apostate website,
Nvr

Anti-Christ

Mad writes: Well, Terry- you sure have proven my opinion that people usually believe ONLY what they WANT to believe. Ever find 40 people that can agree on ANYTHING in this world- as far as what's 'right' and what's 'wrong'? That IS a rhetorical question. No. And yet, in this 'exquisite corpse', as you refer to it, there is the complete harmony of what is Right and Wrong. You have examples of explanations people of just 100 years ago had NO IDEA of; the reference to creation in Scientifically accurate stages (not to be confused with church teachings!), the Mosaic Law protecting the Israelites from germs & viruses that noone knew existed, moral codes that, if followed today, result in a rich & happy person- and SO much more! I can't know WHY you don't want to look at what the Bible says without such animosity- my GUESS is that you clearly see the hypocrasy of religion as a whole- but I encourage you to set all your opinions & feelings aside and look at it a LOT closer!

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

GE 19:30-38 While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring.
2PE 2:7 Lot was "just" and "righteous."

GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses.
JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt).
1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations.
JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one.

EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins.
DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

EX 21:23-25, LE 24:20, DT 19:21 A life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc.
MT 5:38-44, LK 6:27-29 Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies.

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
1KI 22:21-23 God condones a spirit of deception.

LE 25:37, PS 15:1, 5 It is wrong to lend money at interest.
MT 25:27, LK 19:23-27 It is wrong to lend money without interest.

NU 11:33 God inflicts sickness.
JB 2:7 Satan inflicts sickness.

NU 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor.
DT 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera.

DT 24:1-5 A man can divorce his wife simply because she displeases him and both he and his wife can remarry.
MK 10:2-12 Divorce is wrong, and to remarry is to commit adultery.

JG 4:21 Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him.
JG 5:25-27 Sisera was standing.

2SA 24:10-17 David sinned in taking the census.
1KI 15:5 David's only sin (ever) was in regard to another matter.

MT 1:16 Jacob was Joseph's father.
LK 3:23 Heli was Joseph's father.

MT 2:13-16 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt, (where they stay until after Herod's death) in order to avoid the murder of their firstborn by Herod. Herod slaughters all male infants two years old and under. (Note: John the Baptist, Jesus' cousin, though under two is somehow spared without fleeing to Egypt.)
LK 2:22-40 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary remain in the area of Jerusalem for the Presentation (about forty days) and then return to Nazareth without ever going to Egypt. There is no slaughter of the infants.

MT 3:11-14, JN 1:31-34 John realized the true identity of Jesus (as the Messiah) either prior to the actual Baptism, or from the Baptism onward. The very purpose of John's baptism was to reveal Jesus to Israel.
MT 11:2-3 After the Baptism, John sends his disciples to ask if Jesus is the Messiah.

nvrgnbk

Whoa! Whoa! Whoooooaaaaaaaa!!!!!! Anti-christ,
You're blowing my mind with this stuff.
Thanks for blowing my mind,
Nvr
LtCmd.Lore

Anti-christ, that was excellent...
I'm saving that list.
LtCmd.Lore
Qcmbr

I'm no great fan of the idea that the bible is inerrant. I see that it is full of the interpretations of authors not necessarily the exact word of God. That aside we have the greater issue that as in every conversation there must be a listener and even if the bible was 'from God' that does not mean we will get the message - the multiplicity of interpretations is evident and indeed from a philosophical angle can imperfection comprehend perfection?

(Old Testament | Isaiah 55:8 - 9)
8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Indeed the very people most complicit in thie catalogues of bible nastiness themselves do not seem to have understood their God even though having a prophet in their midst.

(Old Testament | Psalms 95:10 - 11)
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Now we in our arrogance dare to malign a people living in the harsh extremities of a warrior culture and moralise that the God who makes life itself possible is somehow 'evil' for supporting a chosen people in their experiences. We in our enlightened world who watch Darfur's rapped and maimed , tut tutted over Bosnia, throw coppers at TV pictures of starving children and have created doomsday weapons with which to kill each other, we who can moralise a few hundred thousand dead Iraqis for 'democracy' and the failed hope that we can sleep more securely in our cosy homes. I suggest we (and I make a very large sweeping we so don't get individually offended) have not paid any kind of price worthy of suggesting what another people should or should not have done.

(New Testament | Mark 2:17)
17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

No people (save Enoch's) , even the chosen, have ever been whole - metaphorically sick people do sick things, enough sick people make a sick society. Our society is as sick and wrong as that one that is recorded as killing an entire city of people, we kill generations of children in our abortion clinics under our zeitgeist god (personal choice no matter the consequences to another.) Whether the actions of a sick people in killing another race at a time of war are wrongly ascribed to God or whether purposes of God required that many innocents die for some purpose that we do not yet know is not ours to judge - with the disdain we spit at the Jews of old we lash our own failed humanity. If they could look forward to our time and to our attrocities I'm sure they would weep too.

Now if we stop looking at the bible as a text book of permissiveness (and under any other discussion that would never be something that was levelled at it!) and instead see it as a record of God's dealings with an imperfect people, of whom we are just the next generation and we see it as the often agonised recordings of the consequences of disobedience (just as our tabloids record our societies tragedies) we can see it as an example to be learnt from. In Jesus we get the public face of God who explains some of 'His ways' and not sursprisingly they are sage, wise, forgiving, honourable and noble and above all inspired by love. Its a message that all great sages of many philosphical persuasions or religious ilk seem to have grasped at and is a message that is beating in the frustrated hearts of many today as they watch the worlds pain.

If we learn anything from the fall of the Ammonites it is that we can do beter - we don't need to impose our will at the cost of another's life. Presumably though we'll just keep bombing innocents while wondering just how inhuman the bible 'really' is.

To round off I think we need to stop judging the bible through our own eyes because not only are we not 'worthy' as CSLewis wrote in one of the Narnia books - it isn't our story:

Shasta: "Then it was you who wounded Aravis?"
Aslan: "It was I."
Shasta: "But what for?"
Aslan: "Child, I am telling you your story, not hers. I tell no-one any story but his own."

And just for Mad - The Book of Mormon is great.

If the bible is from God then explain this!

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