The Wild Beast has both a Name & Number. Do you know what the NAME is?

by Schizm 368 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Schizm
    Schizm
    Wescott and Hort's text

    [psst!] The Wescott and Hort's text I have doesn't capitalize the "g" either. It is only capitalized in the KIT version of Wescott and Hort's text.

    I just checked and neither does Scrivener's 1894 NT, Tischendorf 8th Edition, Friberg NT (USB 3/4), nor the Latin Vulgate.

    AuldSoul

    I just verified what you have to say. The KIT, which is supposed to contain the Wescott & Hort text, shows a capital "G" in the Greek there (wow, I can read Greek). My electronic copy of the Wescott & Hort text shows a lower case "g" in the Greek there, as does yours. The same thing is true of my electronic copy of Scrivener's. What accounts for the difference between the KIT Greek text and the others? I personally don't know the answer to that.

    However, the actual fact of the matter is that the same understanding can be obtained whether the "g" is capitalized or not. To me, though, when it's capitalized in 17:5 (where it has to do with the beast's name), and not capitalized in 18:2 (where it refers to the harlot), it lessens the confusion (considering that the beast itself is "Babylon the Great" and the harlot is "Babylon the great city").

    Something you said in an earlier post that I failed to comment on:

    At least he [Franz] knew the alphabet and could distinguish character case.

    I know how to distinguish between the upper and lower case in Greek. And, with enough time, and following instructions, I can also translate individual Greek letters into the English equivalent. But insofar as being able to read Greek, or speak the language, I'm at a complete loss.

    Something else you said earlier, that is far from being reasonable:

    The name written is NOT "Babylon the Great" as you have suggested. It is a much longer name.

    A "much longer name"? I'll say it again, for the 4th time now: Anyone who has given much thought to what they're reading in Re 17:5 should be able to see that something is desperately wrong with the way it is commonly translated.

    .

  • Schizm
    Schizm
    I am going to be the bigger man and apologise for the manner of a couple of remarks I made, but in return I expect civility and sticking to the topic. -- Jeffro.

    Thank you for the apology, Jeffro. It was your provocative language in the first place that gave me reason to respond to you in the way I did. When people treat me with respect, I return the favor. But when they don't, I may just treat them accordingly.

    Too bad we got off on the wrong foot together. We'll both try harder, okay?

    .

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    WoW, I didn`t know this thread had finally come to life. Well, I think you saw my explanation and link provided earlier in the post, Schizm. I`m just curious about one thing: If 666 is Babylon the great (marked on the forehead), why the numerical value, 666? Why exactly this number for Babylon the great? How does the numbers 666 correspond to the expression (in greek, I assume) "Babylon the great"?

  • daystar
  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    If accurate, changes things a bit, no?

    If accurate, it only highlights the point of previous scholars: That the number was directed to the roman empire/head of the roman empire, who was (in the eyes of the christians themselves) responsible for the persecution of the christians. The persecutions are in themselves a complex matter. In the larger picture, only a fraction of the persecutions were instigated by the emperor himself. More often, it was "local persecutions", initiated by local bureaucrats, or often even just the people in the streets.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    I never said that I could translate Greek. My opinion regarding the name of the beast is founded upon what a variety of scriptures say. It's not necessary that I, or anyone else, be able to read Greek in order to learn the name of the beast. It's foolish of you to think otherwise.

    You claimed to know a more correct way to translate the verse.

    The more correct way to have translated the verse would be something like this:

    I suspected you didn't know what you were talking about, you have subsequently proved me correct. If you meant "understand the verse" you have little cause to point to the foolishness of others. Why should I trust your skills in comprehending and interpretting the communications of others when you cannot even demonstrate facility in correctly communicating your own thoughts?

    If you don't know how to translate Greek, by what authority other than personal conjecture (imagination) do you purport to challenge the translations for accuracy?

    If you have Bible Works I encourage you to study what each of the lexicons you have say regarding the Greek word megále. It is megas in the feminine form, a referrent to women.

    Scrivener's says of megále: "adjective nominative feminine singular no degree."

    In other words, the name on the woman specifies gender.

    Do you ever practice what you preach?

    Yes. I do. However, I am not preaching that you should stop insulting. I only stated a likely outcome of that choice. I don't mind conflict, although I don't crave it either. I believe that sharp conflict over ideas often produces new ways of thinking in both participants. I think that personal insults demean the participant that hurls them, not the person they are hurled toward. I generally apologize if I insult unintentionally or undeservedly.

    Of course, you seem to take reasoned disagreement as insult. Therefore, it is impossible to prevent you from feeling insulted. You retaliate with ad hominem, ad hominem abusive, and appeal to ridicule. But your arguments mostly consist of logical fallacies, namely composition, confusion of cause and effect, division (without supporting evidence), questionable cause (the most prevalent one you use), attempted red herrings, and—in the case of a "more correct translation"—fallacious appeal to authority.

    Since you don't argue your point thoroughly and abuse people for "not getting" what you have failed utterly to prove, you get abuse in return. That is the actual cause and effect of your combative relationships on this forum.

    AuldSoul

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    And he's not exactly loving. Did you cover that one? Did ya cover everything else? I think ya covered everything!

    *** w04 3/1 p. 13 ‘The Faithful Slave’ Passes the Test! ***

    3

    Before 1914, many members of the faithful slave class had high hopes of meeting with the Bridegroom in heaven that year, but their hopes were not fulfilled. As a result of this and other developments, many were disappointed and a few became embittered. Some of these turned to ‘beating’ their former brothers verbally and consorting with "confirmed drunkards," religious groups of Christendom.—Isaiah 28:1-3; 32:6.

    I love the way that quote applies to themselves (especially of Rutherford's era), and how they misuse scripture...

    So did he ever tell us what he thinks the name of the beast is (aside from "Nero")?

  • Schizm
    Schizm
    The more correct way to have translated the verse would be something like this:

    I suspected you didn't know what you were talking about, you have subsequently proved me correct.

    LMAO! Now you've convinced yourself that this really big 'suspicion' of yours has panned out. You're so FULL of it! Posting your BULL here on this forum is nothing more than your way of CRAPping so as not to explode, isn't it. Did losing out as a JW actually have that drastic effect on you? Apparenly so!

    If you meant "understand the verse" you have little cause to point to the foolishness of others.

    I meant exactly what I said. The verse should be translated in a way that it makes sense, whether Little Auldie likes it or not.

    And as is obvious to all but those who cannot see, when considering the arrangement of the wording of the text in the Greek language there's lots of room to rearrange the furniture. Here's the Greek text of Revelation 17:5 again for any who would like to ponder its string of words, and try placing them in an order that will make sense in the English language:

    and upon the forehead of her name having been written mystery babylon the great the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth

    Of corse the following was my effort at wording the verse in a way that it would make sense:

    The more correct way to have translated the verse would be something like this:
    5 And upon her forehead (the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth), was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great.”

    Then Little Auldie spouted:

    If you don't know how to translate Greek, by what authority other than personal conjecture (imagination) do you purport to challenge the translations for accuracy?

    That's another stupid question of yours that doesn't even deserve an answer.

    If you have Bible Works I encourage you to study what each of the lexicons you have say regarding the Greek word megále. It is megas in the feminine form, a referrent to women.

    Scrivener's says of megále: "adjective nominative feminine singular no degree."

    In other words, the name on the woman specifies gender.

    In keeping with your usual practice, what you've said is rather vague. As I said once before, you ask a lot of others but you're a tightwad when it comes to sharing what you have, or at least what you think that you have. Yes, you always have plenty of words when it comes to attacking my competency regards understanding the Bible correctly, but then in cases like the above you become chinchy.

    But, anyway, I suppose that what you're saying is that you think you've found evidence that the name on the forehead of the harlot is a feminine name, and so therefore must be HER name rather than the name of the beast. Let me ask: Since you assume that the entire name is "mystery babylon the great the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth" what part of that multi-worded "name" is it that is supposed to be feminine?

    I think that personal insults demean the participant that hurls them, not the person they are hurled toward.

    Well, then isn't it about time that you start feeling greatly demeaned?

    I generally apologize if I insult unintentionally or undeservedly.

    Oh, I get it now. I you think a person "deserves" being insulted then insult the SOB. Well, I guess that you and I have found a point of agreement. So if I think you deserve to be called a "chicken shit" then you can't blame me for calling you that. Okay, great!

    Of course, you seem to take reasoned disagreement as insult.

    Now there you go, you opened your mouth again and another lie came out. If necessary, I can provide the board with quite a impressive list of outright insults that you've cast at me, words used by you for no other reason than to be rude and to vent your hatred towards a JW. Of course I don't intend on taking the time to search through threads to prove this, but anyone that questions my word, they can click on my post history and look for your postings in those threads. The proof is there, so check it out.

    But your arguments mostly consist of logical fallacies, namely composition, confusion of cause and effect, division (without supporting evidence), questionable cause (the most prevalent one you use), attempted red herrings, and—in the case of a "more correct translation"—fallacious appeal to authority.

    You know, you're about the biggest bullshitter that I've ever come across ... even since my days on the old H20 forum. I really think that you could with the grand prize, the "Biggest BullShitter" award. Some prize, eh!

    Since you don't argue your point thoroughly and abuse people for "not getting" what you have failed utterly to prove, you get abuse in return. That is the actual cause and effect of your combative relationships on this forum.

    Sounds like a "promise" to me. If you insist, let's get it on! Actually, though, that's just some more of the stinky Stuff that'll get you that award that I mentioned.

    It's been nice jacking with you Little Auldie, but I find that if I'm going to get the new things posted that lend further credence to my topic, I simply can't spend all my time addressing your bullshit.

    So, forgive me if from this point forward you don't get the attention you crave.

    .

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe
    The verse should be translated in a way that it makes sense, whether Little Auldie likes it or not.

    Likewise, whether you like it or not, Schizm. You can't just translate it any old way that fits what you like. There are rules to grammar and composition (or did you miss that bit in grade-school English?)

    If you're going to come here and claim to be all scholarly, at least act the part

  • Schizm
    Schizm

    LittleToe,

    *** w04 3/1 p. 13 ‘The Faithful Slave’ Passes the Test! ***

    3

    Before 1914, many members of the faithful slave class had high hopes of meeting with the Bridegroom in heaven that year, but their hopes were not fulfilled. As a result of this and other developments, many were disappointed and a few became embittered. Some of these turned to ‘beating’ their former brothers verbally and consorting with "confirmed drunkards," religious groups of Christendom.—Isaiah 28:1-3; 32:6.

    I love the way that quote applies to themselves

    I love the way it applies to a great number of you apostates here. As a result of not seeing the end come before the generation of 1914 expired, you became dissolusioned and left the WTS, then began to harass your former "brothers".

    I hope you don't intend on derailing the topic/thread here, LittleToe. You've been a real dandy at doing that in the past. There's been enough bullshit posted in this thread, and I'd like to ask that you stay on topic or kindly exit the thread.

    So did he ever tell us what he thinks the name of the beast is (aside from "Nero")?

    If the "he" you're referring to is Schizm, then you apparently having been keeping up with the thread. Yes, the name of the beast is "Babylon the Great". Or, if you prefer, "Babylon the great".

    .

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit