The Wild Beast has both a Name & Number. Do you know what the NAME is?

by Schizm 368 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Schizm
    Schizm

    Little Auldie has asked for another favor. Ain't he nice. He's always asking to receive something but is never willing to give. The tightwad!

    Well, anyway, here's the translation you asked for:

    and upon the forehead of her name having been written mystery Babylon the Great the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth

    Satisfied? No, of course you're not satisfied, for the reasons I gave earlier.

    Then explain why the Greek wording makes more sense in in English the way you translated it.

    I've already done that, dummy.

    .

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    and upon the forehead of her name having been written mystery Babylon the Great the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth

    Thanks for proving my point. Word for word, you wrote the translation of Wescott and Hort's text as printed in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation. You did not translate the text I posted.

    Stephanos 1550 edition agrees with your lowercase usage , as in "babylon the great," and if you had translated it you would not have missed the opportunity to make that point again. You would not have been translating the text presented if you chose to capitalize that word for any reason.

    AuldSoul

  • Schizm
    Schizm

    Okay, you laid a trap for me and I fell for it. That's the trickster that you are, the reason you never did make a decent JW, and the reason for which a person would never want to trust you with anything.

    You had said:

    Tell me what that says, in Greek. Then explain why the Greek wording

    I had assumed that the point you were pursuing had to do with the way the words in the verse were laid out; which, to someone who reads English, appears somewhat scrambled.

    Thanks for proving my point. Word for word, you wrote the translation of Wescott and Hort's text as printed in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation. You did not translate the text I posted.

    And what "point" of yours did I prove? That I didn't translate the text you posted? That was you point? Makes no sense to me! But, yes, what I wrote was straight out of the KIT. And served the purpose of addressing what I had assumed to be your point. If you were honest you'd admit being at fault, due to not having made your "point" clear at the start.

    Insofar as the the Greek source you chose for Re 17:5 is concerned, this is what's stated in the Dioglott: The Textus Receptus is now proved to be the very worst Greek Text extant, in printed form.

    I would think that Wescott and Hort's text would be superior to the Textus Receptus, and it just so happens that it says "Babylon the Great".

    Stephanos 1550 edition agrees with your lowercase usage , as in "babylon the great," and if you had translated it you would not have missed the opportunity to make that point again.

    It's really stupid of you to say that, because from the very beginning I've consistently argued in favor of the word "Great" (Re 17:5) being capitalized.

    Now tell me again, what was that "point" of yours that I was supposed to have "proved".

    The Bible furnishes all the clues a person needs in order to know the name of the beast. And it is shown to be "Babylon the Great". No question about it!

    .

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    I tell people not to trust me all the time but, even still, I wasn't being dishonest. I plainly asked you to TRANSLATE the text I provided. You had previously put forth an alternate "translation" that you said was MORE CORRECT, so I was testing your skill with Greek.

    You only "fell for" the trap because you don't know the Greek language as well as even F.W. Franz (and that ain't saying much). At least he knew the alphabet and could distinguish character case. Therefore, I have every reason to ask you for proof that your "translation" of the verse is more correct than the translation by actual Greek scholars. You have only tossed an unfounded opinion out, you haven't proven anything—except that you don't know Greek.

    It doesn't really matter whether the Textus Receptus is of better or worse quality as a source text. It is actual Greek and you can't actually translate Greek. That being the case, I will dismiss your opinion on anything having to do with the Greek language as being entirely uninformed.

    The Bible furnishes all the clues a person needs in order to know the name of the beast.

    I'm happy you believe you found something special. Hang on to it, but don't get hung up on it. Don't stop digging for other things. It must be frustrating that you can't talk to the Witnesses about this stuff, huh? I hope you don't wind up alienating one of the few places you can go to share your viewpoints. If you stop insulting people you might find that they will respond better. I don't mean post once without insults, I mean if you completely stop insulting people.

    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Wescott and Hort's text

    [psst!] The Wescott and Hort's text I have doesn't capitalize the "g" either. It is only capitalized in the KIT version of Wescott and Hort's text.

    I just checked and neither does Scrivener's 1894 NT, Tischendorf 8th Edition, Friberg NT (USB 3/4), nor the Latin Vulgate.

    AuldSoul

  • Jeffro
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    It doesn't take much to see thru a person that's as transparent as you are, Jeffro.

    Reply with some actual content and not just insults or you will be reported to the admins.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    The more correct way to have translated the verse would be something like this:
    5 And upon her forehead (the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth), was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great.”

    Schizm has since demonstrated that he actually cannot translate Greek, and therefore there is no basis for stating that the above is a better translation. Specifically, the original Greek simply doesn't support such a rendering. Additionally, the NWT offsets the entire title in quotes in a similar fashion to most other translations:

    "Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth."
  • Schizm
    Schizm
    You had previously put forth an alternate "translation" that you said was MORE CORRECT, so I was testing your skill with Greek.

    If you think that in order to properly understand the Bible is dependent on a person being able to read the original languages you're more stupid that I thought you were. And, apparently that's the case with you.

    Therefore, I have every reason to ask you for proof that your "translation" of the verse is more correct than the translation by actual Greek scholars.

    If you think that the so-called "Greek scholars" that you refer to can always understand the Bible better than the common layman, then you're a bigger dummy than I thought you were. And, apparenly that's the case with you. Even translators themselves word a given text according to their own perception of its meaning, and sometimes their idea of the meaning is wrong. Which is the reason why a person who isn't a translator can sometimes see the flaws in the way a text has been translated and/or punctuated. And one very real example of this is the text of Revelation 17:5. Like I've already said, anybody with half a brain should be able to see that something is desperately wrong with the way that verse is commonly translated.

    You have only tossed an unfounded opinion out, you haven't proven anything—except that you don't know Greek.

    No, my opinion that the name of the beast is "Babylon the Great" isn't unfounded. Nor is my alternate way of wording Re 17:5 unfounded, which I will repeat here, as follows:

    The more correct way to have translated the verse would be something like this:
    5 And upon her forehead (the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth), was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great.”

    My suggested way of translating that verse renders it understandable. It would be ridiculous to think the Bible writer meant to say that the name, in addition to "Babylon the Great," included "mystery, the mother of the harlots and the abominations of the earth". Can anyone really fathom all of that being a "name"? That's the reason I say that anybody with half a brain should be able to see that something is desperately wrong with the way that verse is commonly translated.

    It doesn't really matter whether the Textus Receptus is of better or worse quality as a source text. It is actual Greek and you can't actually translate Greek. That being the case, I will dismiss your opinion on anything having to do with the Greek language as being entirely uninformed.

    I never said that I could translate Greek. My opinion regarding the name of the beast is founded upon what a variety of scriptures say. It's not necessary that I, or anyone else, be able to read Greek in order to learn the name of the beast. It's foolish of you to think otherwise.

    It must be frustrating that you can't talk to the Witnesses about this stuff, huh?

    I did make an attempt at communicating my thoughts on this subject to those in the writing department at Bethel, which was several years ago. I could do a better job of it today than before, because when I look back on the document I mailed I can see where I wasn't as clear as I would have wished. It's not always an easy thing to convey one's thoughts in a concise enough way that others can immediately grasp.

    If you stop insulting people you might find that they will respond better. I don't mean post once without insults, I mean if you completely stop insulting people.

    I asked you earlier (with no answer from you) and so I'll ask you again: Do you ever practice what you preach? Do you think that you, yourself, could completely stop insulting people? And let's suppose that both you and I did, do you really think that there would be a lot of people here that would follow the example set?

    .

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Earlier, 'schizm' attempted to label me a 'hypocrite'. At this point I would like to remind 'schizm' of his own hypocrisy, both in his making that statement and his other continued insults, that he is directly contravening Romans 12:17-21. Further, it is also hypocritical of a Witness to be "running ahead" of the Society and yet remain in the organization.

    Schizm expects others to accept his interpretations though he insults them at every opportunity.

    Schizm, start setting a better example, and then maybe, just maybe, if you have something that you can back up with facts, people will be more inclined to listen to you.

    I am going to be the bigger man and apologise for the manner of a couple of remarks I made, but in return I expect civility and sticking to the topic.

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