by hibiscusfire 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
sero: Perhaps you didn't read all of the post. The Bible says God made the sun, moon and stars BETWEEN the canopy and Earth. This must mean the canopy you speak of is outside our universe... right? The stars are billions of lightyears away, they aren't within our atmosphere!
Where in the bible did you see that? Your interpretation skills are really goo goo ga ga.
Did you forget about Heaven?
hibie
Where in the bible did you see that?
Well I did give the scriptures. I'll write out what it says...
Genesis 1:6-8:
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
So we have the water on Earth, heaven (or 'sky' in other versions), then the water canopy. Water, heaven, water. Following so far?
Then in Genesis 1:16,17 it says:
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
This means that the stars, sun and moon are between the Earth and the water canopy. It's there plain as day- God set them in the firmament of the heaven. You know, that firmament between the two waters.
Now, stars are billions of light years away, they are not in our atmosphere (I hope you can agree with me on that point). This means that the water canopy had to be outside our universe.
sero: sero: Perhaps you didn't read all of the post. The Bible says God made the sun, moon and stars BETWEEN the canopy and Earth. This must mean the canopy you speak of is outside our universe... right? The stars are billions of lightyears away, they aren't within our atmosphere!
I am sorry sero I guess this is a difficult topic to discus. I understand where you are coming from. May we break it down like this:
hibiscusfire
Hibie, none of that is in the Bible. There is no second or third heaven mentioned. No 'sea of seperation' outside the universe. No heaven full of stars AND a heaven within our atmosphere. There is one heaven mentioned in Genesis. One. You have made all of that up to get around the problem.
The reason people wrote that is because they didn't realize stars were so far away, they thought they were 'set' (another mistake) not very far above them. It shows the Bible was written by people with very little scientific knowledge. Why are you adding in all this extra heavens stuff? Isn't adding or taking away from what is written going against God?
sero: Now, stars are billions of light years away, they are not in our atmosphere (I hope you can agree with me on that point).
Yes I agree with you on that point. Most definitely. I believe that water canopy could really mean the ozone layer that has changed with time or it could have been just over the ozone layer. We ought to consider water vapour too. The earth was much cooler then than it is today. People complain that the days are getting hotter. We have more hurricanes and more crazy weather now.
In Genesis the Lord God made 3 Heavens. (There are 3 levels)
1.The 1st heaven is the Earth's atmosphere. "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." Gen 1:20 KJV
2.The 2nd heaven is the vast expanse of the physical universe - outer space. "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" Gen 1:14 KJV
These two heavens constitute a continuum called the "firmament" and this firmament is collectively called "Heaven". "And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
Gen 1:8 KJV
3. The 3rd Heaven is above this higher "Sea" or waters and this higher sea is before and below the Throne of God. The "third heaven" is not directly mentioned in the Genesis narrative, the established structure of all things is defined in Genesis 1 and, when understood, allows us to comprehend exactly where and what Paul was talking about when he mentions the "third heaven" in his letter. It also gives the reader a better understanding of John's vision in Revelation 4
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. Revelation 4:6 KJV
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that (be) above the heavens. Psalms 148:4 KJV
Therefore, this particular water (sea) above the firmament is above the known physical universe. Since the sun, moon and stars are "in" the firmament this other water (sea) MUST be above them.
What do you think?
hibiscusfire
I think it's a nice try.
You have decided the first two heavens are different. There is nothing at all to indicate this. Both are called the 'firmamant of heaven'. Within the same chapter. Unless it's extremely bad writing, those heavens mentioned are one and the same.
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal
Oh boy...
When you go swimming, do you like to swim in glass? Obviously not, as glass and water are completely different things.
"I looked out into the crowd and saw a sea of faces." - Would this person be saying people were water? Of course not! 'Sea' does not mean 'water'.
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that (be) above the heavens. Psalms 148:4 KJV
This is the water canopy again, because they thought stars were so close. Water, heaven, water.
You must be pulling our legs and yanking our chains hibiscusfire? No one is really this dim-witted, surely? Your seeming lack of any basic scientific knowledge (whether you believed in it or not) is just flat out unbelievable. Where were you educated? I knew more about science I didn't believe in as a 12 year old JW than you do as an adult nonJW. I am assuming you are an adult.
You can't really be this scientifically uninformed and yet be so confident in your ignorance? If this isn't a put on then I don't even know where to start. For example, I have a basic working knowledge of Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology even though I don't believe a word of it is true because it is a part of our culture so surely you know some science even if you don't believe in it? I can talk with some working knowledge about these mythologies and debate their merits while your postings are so idiotic that there isn't even a basis for debate.
Please tell me you are just putting us on.
sero, liberty,
The 3rd Heaven is mentioned in the Bible. This I am sure. I just checked it.
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven ."II Cor. 12:2 KJV
Apostle Paul spoke about it in the book of II Corinthians, chapter 12, verse 2. He spoke of a place called the "third heaven".
The structure of all things is defined in Genesis 1.
When we can understand this structure it allows us to figure out exactly where and what Paul was talking about when he mentions the "3rd heaven" in his letter. A person can better understand John's vision in Revelation 4.
Again, when the Lord God divided the waters He created a boundary which presently exists between the 2 lower heavens (which make up the firmament) and the 3rd heaven (where the throne of God is). That boundary is that "s ea " or "water" and, again, that "sea" or "water" is above the two heavens of the firmament. It is also described in places as crystal or smooth glass.
And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as thecolour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.Ezekiel 1:22 KJV
And the reason why it appears like a smooth, crystal surface is because it is frozen.
The waters are hid as (with) a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.Job 38:30 KJV
hibiscusfire
Hibis, are you ignoring me?
I posed the same question 2 times, and you have yet to answer it for me?
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