Welcome Smiles. I hope you enjoy your stay here.
Spirit Directed
by Smiles_Smiles 63 Replies latest jw friends
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LouBelle
I grew up in the faith so didn't have much of a choice of being led by anything other than my mothers' hand. But when I wanted to get to know the bigger picture, not restricted by the organisation - I do feel that something - call it gut (for those who believe there is no God) call it the spirt for those who do....but I did know that there was an urgentcy to get out.
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Terry
Maybe I should be more clear when I say 'spirit'. I am talking more about the motivation from the soul that is not distinguished by words. Sometimes people talk about synchronicity. And being motivated by the experiences of synchronity. When I speak of spirit led I am talking about in the realm of things like that. Basically - Energy. Energy that is different and tangible but not physical nor easily defined in logical terms.
The above box contains your words about "spirit" and I'd like to talk about what you said. This is not to be RIGHT and make you WRONG; but, rather to demonstrate for you that words can mean absolutely nothing when they are vague and linked to other vagueness.
When you talk about "motivation" from the "soul" that is "not distinguished by words", I assume you mean to tell me something. But, what it sounds like you are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you haven't clearly defined WHY you feel something; but, you act on the feeling while unable to explain your reason for it.
This sounds like a floating concept detached from rational thoughts.
GOOGLE: Define "MOTIVATION": " On the biological level basic human needs of food, shelter and survival are powerful motivators. On the psychological level people need to be understood, affirmed, validated and appreciated. "
Basic human needs move you (motivate) to take action. The action leads to satisfying needs.
Nothing mysterious about human needs; but, why use the word SOUL? Your total person should be enough for you without positing the need for any shadowy and insubstantial something or other. (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.)
Next, you use the word SYNCHRONICITY. A mystical fellow like DEEPAK CHOPRA loves to use such words to imply that "All things happen for a reason". This statement is utterly meaningless but, implies our lives are being directed by someone or something.
Let's face it, two things can happen at the same time. In fact, many things are always happening at the same time. To pick and choose which two of the millions of things that are happening and make something "special" and "meaningful" about the co-incidence is mere human silliness. If you plan a picnic and it rains, is the universe telling you something special?
Finally, that word ENERGY again!
Mystics just love to use that word without really meaning anything at all when they use it!
What is energy? Energy and Matter are the same thing in two different states. That is what Einstein gave us to realize. He even showed how they are equal in a simple equation: E=MC2.
Energy "happens" when the matter is active at its smallest constituency. It is motion and it is physical and it is NOT mystical.
The problem with mystical language is that it is HIJACKING actual language of Science and pretending to use it accurately. By using actual science language in a METAPHORICAL way you damage the integrity of the meaning and set off a reaction in the unwary human mind that leads to silly and unfounded implications.
Note: I'm not calling you silly or trying to bludgeon you in any way. I'm just demonstrating (I hope) that we can mislead ourselves by not realizing we think with language. If our language isn't precise; our thinking isn't precise.
Our thinking is largely swarming with INFERENCES. One thing suggests another. If we don't root out all the metaphorical (and inaccurate) nonsense we can't think with clarity. Then, we can't express WHY WE FEEL a certain way.
Just think about this one thing:
A rational person knows why.
An irrational person only feels.
It is easy to lead a person who only feels. Mystics do it for a living by damaging language and destroying clear thinking.
BEWARE!
Check the words in your lexicon for hidden "resonances" and root out metaphor substituting for actual definitions.
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Terry
Terry,
If you apply that rule strictly you erradicate all human emotion as non-existent. Emotions defy exact definition, so do they exist? Other concepts, such as esteem, respect, dishonor, likewise wink out of existence in that bleak drab world.
Do you have clarification, or do you truly disbelieve anything you cannot quantify and define with exactness?
Which has done more to uplift the condition of the human race? Confusion and emotion; ill-defined and powerfully motivating.....OR...accurate information, careful measurement and clearly defined data?
When you say EMOTIONs "defy exact definition" are you saying something about your own condition; or, are you saying this is true for everybody?
I say, nonsense! I'll explain why I say it and I am not picking on you or trying to be silly.
Humans have 5 senses that inform us where we are and what is what. Our nervous system has to be faster (and more accurate) than conscious rational evaluation to protect us from basic damage. If we could ONLY react by CONSCIOUS decision we'd be dead in a short time.
We have TWO systems at work; one is AUTOMATIC and the other is consciously driven.
What we FEEL in a given time and place is through our senses and that feeling is informed by those two systems.
But, notice this: ALL EMOTION is informed by our value system. (i.e. is this thing that is happening "helpful/harmful"? Does it lead to the satisfaction of my goals/obstruct my goals?)
If we "feel" hungry our basic needs for nourishment are moving us to eat. When we smell delicious food we smile and feel the emotion that naturally follows satisfaction of basic needs.
That is the AUTOMATIC part.
But, if we see a child crying in a supermarket.....what then?
One person can feel angry and want the child to shut up. Another person can feel pity and want the child's discomfort attended to. Which EMOTION is felt (and by whom) is exactly informed by the VALUE placed on children.
That is the NON-automatic part.
Once again: all emotion follows value.
I notice you said something quite astonishing to me:
If you apply that rule strictly you erradicate all human emotion as non-existent
When you define something it becomes CLEAR; it does not vanish into non-existence. I believe you only believe that those things which are vague and ill-defined have actual existence. Can you really mean to say that? I think not.
If you don't understand how your computer works (inside) you can still use it, naturally. But, when anything happens beyond your basic skills the computer will be useless to you and need repair. The same is true of your life.
You may not understand how emotions work (by not defining the values which move them into being) but, you can still use those emotions for daily purposes. When a problem arises with them, however, you will be at the mercy of your lack of comprehension and your emotions will rule you.
DEFINE your values and you have the key to understanding each and every "feeling" you have.
This makes life much easier and brings your decision power and your intelligence into the things you feel.
You will never be a cold and unfeeling robot by understanding something. Your automatic system is always operating beneath the conscious level. But, when the emotional lightning bolt strikes; by knowing what your (subconscious) values are you enable your mind to cope with where it is coming from and how best to deal with it.
Do you have clarification, or do you truly disbelieve anything you cannot quantify and define with exactness?
Do you think I don't "believe in" emotion?
Why would you think that?
We live in a cause and effect universe. By understanding the cause we better comprehend the effect.
EMOTIONS DO NOT CAUSE anything.
Emotions are the EFFECT of the actual cause: OUR VALUES.
I hope this makes what I am saying clear.
I'm not tryng to be argumentative; I'm just expressing why I say what I say.
Our autonomic responses are fed by our basic human needs. Beyond that our conscious mind feeds our emotions. All men are created equal only in our humanity (basic human needs) and all else is chosen to the extent our intelligence informs our choices.
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trevor
Terry
I read your last reply to smiles-smiles and will be interested in his/her reply.
I am not unfamiliar with the subject but thought that your explanation was clear and well expressed. It is simply stated but contains the key to moving beyond confusion and understanding our emotions.
I read it several times then reformatted it into a smaller layout and then saved it. I am going to e-mail to a few stressed out friends.I found it helpful myself and I have started to review my values and how they affect my motivation.
And all without a fee!
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Sunspot
During these discussions, I come away with feeling sub-human in some respects. I was one of those that Scully spoke about---one who had undergone a major and important change in my life. We had had a serious disagreement with the Parish Priest who was preparing our four kids for their First Communions.
There were several difficulties ($40 we had to pay him, the four white outfits from head to toe to buy, and the fact that I wanted my sis and her in-the-US-Army to be the Godparents but they couldn't be home from KY on the correct date. Many angry conversations by phone ensued, plus I was expecting my 5th baby in a few months. It wasn't pretty. Hubby finally got so fed up with me crying and the priest phoning and getting me upset---that he plainly told the priest to go to hell. (wince)
It wasn't long after that the JWs came to the door and asked me if I had ever wanted to know what my bible said......and I bit. So most people on here that have answered this anyway---were raised in the WTS and didn't have any "say" in that. *I* chose to become a JW at age 30 (not a child) and I do feel awful about that.
I don't believe it was Holy Spirit that led me to be a JW-----but who's not to say that it wasn't the One that helped me to see the hypocrisy (finally) of what I thought of as the "truth". I don't think I'll ever really know. Whatever the case---I AM out, and have nothing but contempt for the WT.
Annie
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Narkissos
Welcome Smiles...
Leaving a definition of the "Spirit" aside, I guess I can relate to what you said.
When I became a JW (I was only 13 years old) I thought that God had shown me the "true way". I had spent several years in a Catholic board school, was fed up with it and I had prayed God to "let me know if there was something else". Some time later the JWs made their way into my family and I eventually thought "that was it".
Some 15 years later I was working in Bethel. Some discussions with close friends led me to a completely fresh reading of the New Testament. I knew I was heading for a painful exit, but to me, at that point that was it, definitely. When I submitted my resignation I was asked to stay for a few months to finish some urgent translation work. Among other things I had to translate the oncoming Yearbook, with the usual testimonies of people that were "being led to Jehovah's organisation," "guided through persecution" etc. Doing that work was so painful to me I had to stop many times, literally breathless, to lock myself in the dark and just say: "God, I don't understand."
I didn't dismiss those testimonies as rubbish, nor did they change my mind. I just accepted I didn't understand, yet followed my path.
Even now from an atheistic standpoint I still treasure the saying: "The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
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jimakazi
Parents led me in, seemed OK until I got older and started to think for myself - my power of rational thought led me out.
Don't under rate yourself, I'm sure you have some free will [although it might appear very damaged after prolonged exposure to the JW's].
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OldSoul
Terry,
What is "Anger."
I did not infer that emotions do not exist. I inferred that emotions cannot be defined. They are entirely subjective and are 100% independently experienced. No individual can ever know another individual's internal definition of anger without literally being able to see the world from their perspective. Yet, not even you will argue their non-existence.
Everything doesn't have to be defined to exist. Everything doesn't have to be seen or tangible to impact life in real ways. That was my point. I have no idea what your discussion on emotion being cause or effect had to do with what I was saying, but for what it is worth I agree with you. I wasn't discussing the source of emotions. I was demonstrating an effect of application of your statement, "So, this SPIRIT is merely a concept that 'feels like' it means something. But, it doesn't. It is vague and unreal."
Replace "SPIRIT" with any emotion you like and apply the rule you laid out and each emotion you enter into your formula disappears. Poof! Gone.
I say SPIRIT is experienced individually and can only be experienced individually. You say that it doesn't exist if it can't be defined tangibly, I will ask you to assert that requirement across the board and see how much you alter your perceptions of reality. I chose emotions, but there are thousands of intangible concepts that we believe to exist.
Even scientific, well-grounded types. Have you ever seen infinity? Can you have infinity of anything? Can you mathematically describe the volume of all shapes without using infinity?
Can you have less than none of anything?
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
myelaine
Dear Terry,I am sorry I probably wont have all the right words to say this but I will try. Terry, you know that I care about you, out of the blue I wrote you a story that I hoped would help make you feel better, in your heart. I heard your story and I thought there's a guy who needs the love of a father. I could read between the lines. Was I inaccurate? NO. I told you before that I was led to write that story specifically for you, you know this, Terry. You also know that you read and responded to it before you knew that I had sent it to you personally. I asked you to note that before when we talked. and you did. you said you would think about it. Wont you, or can't you explain how this happened.
please Terry,
Just think about this one thing:
A rational person knows why.
An irrational person only feels.
It is easy to lead a person who only feels. Mystics do it for a living by damaging language and destroying clear thinking.
all of my love, to you..
michelle
p.s. somehow your warning "BEWARE" got erased. perhaps I should insert it again.