Do we have "Free Will" or is it an illusion?

by Rod P 134 Replies latest members private

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  Euphemism

  P.S. drwtsn32... *rubbing hands evilly* Apparently I still have some of that tendency towards evangelism...
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  Rod P

  Euphemism,

  If there is any meaning in life, we have to find it within ourselves.

  I couldn't agree with you more.

  The existence of God does not mean He is our puppetmaster. Not if He created us with Free Will. We are not just some robot on a string.

  I should explain myself better. If you feel you have free will, with or without God, then that is perfectly OK with me. For me, on the other hand, that is incongruous and unacceptable. Vive la difference!

  Oh, and don't worry about me. I'm a big boy now, and I don't mind a good debate now and then. I might learn something. And who knows, perhaps ditto for you....And him.....And her....

  Isn't that what this is all about?

  Rod P.
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  Rod P

  Country Girl,

  There will always be someone having a say over what we do. And yes, you have to decide for yourself how far you will allow that to happen to you.

  But that is not the question here.

  The real question is:

  Do you decide or choose how far you will let someone have a say over you BECAUSE of who you are- your very nature, your essence, your being? In other words, do you choose what you choose because you are what you are? Is your genetic makeup, your biological makeup, your personality what makes you choose to accept more or less in reaction to someone else telling you what you can do or not do?

  You may say "This far and no more!" Another person may allow it to go a lot further than you would. The difference between the two of you in choosing, is that your personalities, your natures are different. And that is what makes you choose what you choose.

  If that is so, then you do not really have Free Will. Your choices are predetermined by your own make-up.

  Rod P.
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  DanTheMan

  Finally, it disturbs me that all you materialists and scientists refuse to accept the possibility of anything beyond your physically observable universe through the medium of your puny, limited instruments of technology.

  Well, I can't think of any good reason to believe in the existence of anything outside of what we can experience or detect via our crappy senses and instruments.
  

  I think that the whole argument boils down simply to whether or not you believe there is a "ghost in the machine". I choose to believe that there isn't. And if there is such a thing, how can you be certain that *it* isn't governed by something deterministic (inherited disposition, etc.)

  As a side note, this was a great source of cognitive dissonance for me regarding WTS theology: According to their interpretation, there is no soul inside us that is separate from our physical nature, we *are* souls. But if that's the case, then what is it about one person vs. another that makes them worthy of being judged as "good" by choosing to be JW or "bad" by remaining in The World? The only logical answer can be that it's their own genetic nature and life experiences. Which seems to nullify the whole thing, as their whole concept of what makes humans tick is so rooted in a metaphysical way of interpreting behavior, and yet at the same time they vigorously "reason from the scriptures" to try to prove the opposite. I'm probably not articulating this very well, but do you catch my drift?

  I liked Terry's first post to this thread. We're constantly forced into making choices. We have no choice but to choose. I like that, never thought of it in those terms.
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  Terry

  Nothing is Absolute.

  Surely you see this is an absolute statement......don't you?

  T
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  Terry

  FREE WILL

  We need to slice this round lunchmeat a little thinner here :)

  Free Will is not concerned with somebody having the authority to force you to do something and you being unable to resist or die. That isn't Free Will or a lack of it in my book. Such a situation as "your money or your life" is compulsion, coercion and necessity---not choice (as in Free Will).

  Such a situation brings alternatives clearcut and definable by cause and effect. Common sense, if you will.

  But, aren't alternatives "choices"? Not in our __free will__sense. Not in my thinking, anyway.

  FREE WILL has to do with whether or not you WILL on purpose.

  If you stop eating; you die. But, what you eat and how; how much and how often are merely details that fall under the general heading of : I WILL eat. Eating isn't much of a choice in the face of starvation and death. Eating is a function of necessity. To call this _choice_ is to concern oneself with trifles and avoid the REAL choice in the FREE will issue.

  People who lived under Communism remained religious (if they were religious to begin with) even in the face of all outward pressures to become Atheist. Why? Because they could not CHOOSE to be other than what it was their nature to be: religious. You cannot choose to be short or have curly red hair anymore than you can change your nature.

  What it is in our nature to be; we are. A thing is what it is. Corollary? A thing is not what it isn't.

  We confuse the act of conforming to our nature with choosing. Not so. We are quibbling over matters of personal taste. You like your steak rare? That isn't choice. That is personal taste and it is a quibble of little consequence. TRUE FREE WILL would require nothing by its nature. The choosing or not choosing would be Ad Hoc and under no compulsion of preference or inclination by its nature.

  In effect, we are talking about a pure ideal. And, to refresh your mind on this matter, an ideal is a postulate and not a referent. IDEALS are mock-ups of intangible and non-existing perfect possibilities. Coming from where? Our imagination.

  Free Will is an ideal and not a reality.

  We are all locked into our nature. We must be who and what we are. Everyday is an act of further defining and becoming what our nature is. Our ignorance of what that is is the source of our illusory FREE will of choosing this and that.

  But, now it is getting too deep to discuss and everybody fell asleep anyway. So, I'll stop.

  T.
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  OldSoul

  Are we discussing free will in Scriptural terms? I mean, what is free will? The ability to exercise volition absent outside pressures, or the capacity to do so despite outside pressures? I believe free will is actually the latter.

  Without the presence of free will, without belief in that premise, on what basis can anyone be held accountable to any standard? I believe what we are, as persons, can be reduced in part to genetics and in part to our response to pressures (necessities). Do we get to choose our responses? Yes. Does genetics make it more likely that we will choose one response over another? Certainly.

  Must we take the course of least evolutionary resistance? No.

  To me, the capacity to determine a different course than the one we are pressured to enter is free will. All humans have it, although many do not exercise it.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  Rod P

  Terry,

  Wow! It's gonna take me a while to assimilate all that, and it's half-past midnite right now. Will get back to you tomorrow (or should I say later today)?

  Old Soul,

  I have been commenting on this whole subject of Free Will on the basis that it has little or nothing to do with external influences forcing us to decide a certain way. I have been talking about exercising our volition without the imposition of outside forces, and then asking the question whether we choose what we choose because we are by nature, what we are. If the answer is "Yes" then we do not have Free Will, and everything we do is deterministic.

  What bothers me about Determinism is exactly what you are pointing out, and that is that there then is no accountability or responsibility, and no right or wrong. I might just as well go out there and rob a bank or kill someone I don't happen to like. Why would it matter? We could debate situation ethics here, but from a long term or eternal perspective, nothing really matters in a deterministic universe. At least not in any way that I can see. Also, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die! Hedonism, here we come.... Nah!... Witchcraft is better. "Do what thou wilst shall be the whole of the law."

  Rod P.
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  LittleToe

  Rod:I believe the answer is both, but philosophy and theology are used to such dichotomies.

  From a theological POV God had/has foreordained all that comes to pass (objective reality). From a human subjective perspective we have choices to make every day and there's no fate but what we make.

  This is one misnomer about fortune-telling. The purpose is to extract the result that will occur if we make no change to our course or pattern of choices. Making changes (including the very inquiry) affects the outcome.

  Terry:
  Looks like you've come to the same conclusion by a different route

  The self is not the entity that governs brain processes, but is the outcome of those processes.

  It is?

  Euph:Life IS meaningless without God. If nothing transcends a state of "determinism", then all we have left is an automated universe. "Pleased to meet you, Cog, I'm Sprocket"
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  trevor

  I am impressed by some of the arguments here. Do the intelligent people posting here choose to be intelligent or is it in their nature which they have recognized and capitalized on through study and application of their brains?

  I am not a scientist, more of a scientific experiment. The issue of whether we can accurately predict how a person will act in a given circumstance give all knowledge of his genetically and cultural background is an interesting one. It is impossible to know for sure.

  The only sure evidence we can rely on is reality. Our own history is a part of reality that is to say it took place in reality. If each of us were again, in the same place, at the same time, with the same set of emotions as we had then, we would act in the same way again. We know that because when we were in that known situation, with the set of emotions we had at that moment that is how we did act.

  Unless one of the variables was changed we would be ourselves - identically. How could we be anything else? We may act differently now because we have changed and we have the benefit of hindsight. We may condemn the way that someone has acted because we would have acted differently, but we are not them. If we were we would act the same. We know this because when that person was put in that situation with his/her emotional state and cultural/genetically history, the result was a product of the reality of those factors coming together.

  I know this suggests that we have no freewill and are therefore not responsible for our actions but reality is difficult to ignore. I like to think I am responsible for my actions but it could be that I am just a part of the life?s random game and my actions are all an unavoidable part of my conditioning and genes.

  Why do I post these thoughts? I had no choice - being a Jehovahs Witness damaged my mind!