Jesus, his life, his teachings, and his death, are surely very important to you - please think very carefully if Jesus needs someone between you and him - if that's what he wants? Is it what other Christians teach? Why not?
I wasn't lying to you in my post - what reason would I have to? I don't know you, I can't change what you think, and I can't stop you attending meetings. You don't *care* what I think. I just haven't found a JW who knows the teaching until I show them in their publications... so I thought I ought to make you aware what you'd be giving up.
For instance in one responce to this very post someone(glitter) accused Witnesses of believing that Jesus is not the mediator between man and God.This is a lie!!!!!
It's not a lie. You could have looked it up on your WT CD, or clicked on the link I gave and checked against your own books and magazines... but oops: "BTW,I'm not a Witness either." so you can't - and how can you know exactly *what* it is they teach? You can still phone up Brooklyn Bethel, or any regional HQ, though and ask them. But you won't.
Either glitter is totally ignorant or they are simpley lying to you.
You are wrong. You have never been a JW, yet you think you know more than those who were in for most of their lives... who's ignorant again?
All Witnesses know very well that Jesus is the direct moderator between mankind and God.That is why you must ask for things and pray to the father in Jesus' name.Witnesses know this very well.Always have.
Sort of correct - though it's not true, I'm not wrong. It's what many or most Jehovah's Witnesses think. It's what most of them assume - because it's what the Bible teaches. But not what the Watchtower teaches. I have asked *Elders* "Who is your Mediator?" and they have given the "wrong" answer... it's the *right* answer of course, but the WT teaches something which is a lie.
Oh, and *I* left for conscience reasons when I found out how disgusting their policy on paedophiles is. Before or after I have done NOTHING I could have been disfellowshipped for. Except post here and believe the truth about The Truth.
Only Jehovah's Witnesses
Ya know, it's funny. I'm on a few other boards about programming and webmasters. Nobody ever comes on there and says, "Well, I've never been a programmer, but I think you guys are all wrong." Generally, if people don't know the topic, they don't try to speak on it.
I wonder why people don't exercise that same reasoning when it comes to religion? Puzzling... Of course, I used to go to Catholics' doors and try to explain to them that THEY were wrong when I didn't have a clue about them either, so maybe I'm not one to talk.
She's right mr defense guy, a "mature" christian would understand that mediation takes place over the new covenent.
*** w91 2/15 p. 18 ?You Were Bought With a Price? ***
11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already ?washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.? (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God?s Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God?s friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually ?be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God.??Romans 8:21.
Now if that?s outa context I?ll eat my hat!
Did WitlessDefender not see the quote provided by glitter? It is the most succinct and clear statement on the matter:
***Worldwide Security 1986, p10***
?Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.?
Like some Witnesses, I had also long thought that Jesus was my mediator. I did not realize the teaching was different until this book was published. WitlessDefender apparently is clinging onto "old light". Thus older publications had expressed a different view:
"The Bible clearly says that Jesus Christ is mankind's redeemer, so he is mankind's mediator. Therefore, our prayers should be addressed to God through, or in the name of Jesus. (1 Tim. 2:5, 6) This being the case, there is absolutely no Biblical reason why men should canonize saints or pray to them." (Awake!, July 8, 1969, p. 24)
But this was changed in 1979. The April 1, 1979 Watchtower said: "Reasonably Paul was here using the word 'mediator' in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians" (p. 31).
Now...if Witless Defender posts here again, will s/he apologize to glitter for saying she was either "lyring" or "totally ignorant"?
Witness Defender - what on earth are you doing? By defending what you KNOW is untrue, you are seeking to stumble one who is earnestly seeking God! It would be better for you to tie a millstone to your neck and jump into the sea than to continue on your course!
Are you mad? You KNOW that this is what the Watchtower has taught for 20 years now! You should KNOW that Frederick W. Franz, enamored of his "two classes" dogma, first espoused this doctrine as a corollary to it. This doctrine was taught for years, this is backed up by evidence from the Watchtower itself, as Leolaia has shown. It was a major stumbling block to many in positions of oversight, including missionaries and others capable of learning what the Bible was actually teaching.
Try to defend the doctrine if you will, but by no means try to deny its existence. Your share will be in Gehenna, outside with the dogs, and the liars, and the cowards.
Stop seeking to seduce the unwary with your lies! The Watchtower emphasizes the subservient position of the "great crowd" to the point of denying them Christ as a Mediator; thereby squeezing themselves into a higher position. Much like the Israelite who carved himself a royal tomb, only to lose his esteemed position in the end.
It would be better for you if you could be struck blind for a time, even as Paul struck his opposer in the court of Sergius Paulus, in order to teach him humility and to stop seeking evil! But alas, no miracles today, so you must wander in your mad folly like Baalam! I pray for an angel to stop you, ass!
Czar is channeling Bible Jesus...
Czar is channeling Bible Jesus...
Who knew that Holy Spirit came in the form of a bottle of Beefeater Gin?
But I meant what I said - if the Bible is true, even in one verse in a hundred, then Witness Defender is screwing himself!
/makes note never to get on wrong side of Czar.
Here is a good article from the 11/15/79 Watchtower on Jesus being mediator.Now rather than take one simple quote and spin doctor it to fit your own needs let's see how you do with the whole article.Any of you wanna throw out some of your witless troll-like thoughts on this one?
Benefitingfrom "One Mediator Between God and Men"
TODAY none of the 152 nations composing the United Nations are interested in making a covenant with Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No, not even the 15,000,000 Jews that at present are scattered around the earth. In spite of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34, they prefer to believe that they are still under the old Law covenant mediated by Moses. "Because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own [by striving to keep the Law covenant], they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God," available to them through the new covenant. (Rom. 10:1-3) Jehovah, the God of true righteousness, proposed the new covenant. He alone could establish it and pick the suitable mediator for it.
2"‘Look! There are days coming,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; . . . ‘For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people. And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, "Know Jehovah!" for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.’"—Jer. 31:31-34.
3When did Jehovah conclude that new covenant "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"? The timing of this depended upon the mediator whom Jehovah picked for the covenant. Moses was not to be resurrected from the dead in order to mediate the new covenant. He could be of no more help to those in the new covenant than he was to Israel.
4We are left in no doubt as to who the required mediator proved to be. Here we turn to the inspired letter written to Hebrews by a Hebrew, by that student who used to sit at the feet of the noted Pharisee teacher of the first century of our Common Era, namely, Gamaliel. Showing the difference between Moses and the new mediator, he proceeds to say: "Just as Moses, when about to make the tent in completion, was given the divine command: For says he: ‘See that you make all things after their pattern that was shown to you in the mountain [Sinai].’ But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises." (Heb. 8:5, 6) "And Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood."—Heb. 12:24.
5Jesus recognized that the time had come for Jehovah to replace the old Mosaic Law covenant with the new covenant. So, on the Passover night before his death on Friday, Nisan 14, 33 C.E., he started a memorial of his sacrificial death. When he took the Memorial wine cup, he said to his eleven faithful apostles: "Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.’" (Matt. 26:27, 28) Or, as the apostle Paul phrases Jesus’ words: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Cor. 11:25) For parts of three days he was dead in a memorial tomb and could not begin to act as mediator of that new covenant.
6Although Jeremiah 31:31-34 did not mention it, yet a sacrifice was needed to put the new covenant in force. Sacrifice was needed because, in the statement of the new covenant, God said: "I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more." (Jer. 31:34) The blood of animal victims was used in the making of the old Mosaic Law covenant, and for cleansing purposes. In line with this, the mediator Moses "sprinkled the tent and all the vessels of the public service likewise with the blood. Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place." (Heb. 9:21, 22) The value of the lifeblood of Jesus was still in his possession when he was raised from the dead on Sunday, Nisan 16, 33 C.E. This is what Hebrews 13:20 indicates when it says: "The God of peace . . . brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus."—John 10:11.
7Because the new covenant was made operative by means of a better sacrifice, the Christianized Hebrews were asked: "How much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to the living God?" Because Christ’s blood does have such power to cleanse us from the sin that condemns us, we next read: "So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called [by God] might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance." (Heb. 9:14, 15) But when did Christ’s blood begin to cleanse the consciences of those Christianized Hebrews who had been under "the former covenant," the Law covenant that had been mediated by Moses at Mount Sinai?
8Not at Christ’s resurrection from the dead, but the 50th day from then. That is, on the day of Pentecost after he had ascended to heaven and had entered into God’s presence "into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us."—Heb. 9:24.
9On that day of Pentecost the apostle Peter gave a speech to the Jews and circumcised Jewish proselytes that pricked their consciences. "What shall we do?" they asked. Peter replied: "Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit." (Acts 2:37, 38) This promise of forgiveness of their sins over which they had repented proved something. What? That God’s new covenant with its provision for forgiveness of sins had gone into effect that very day, inasmuch as the old Mosaic Law covenant had been nailed to the death stake of Jesus Christ!—Eph. 2:15, 16; Col. 2:14; Heb. 8:8-13; Jer. 31:34.
10This same fact was emphasized a few days later. Peter then said to a gathering of bloodguilty Jews at the temple: "Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time." Finally Peter ended his speech by saying: "To you first God, after raising up his Servant, sent him forth to bless you by turning each one away from your wicked deeds."—Acts 3:19-21, 26.
"MEDIATOR"TO HOW MANY?
11However, was God making the new covenant with the natural, fleshly "house of Israel" and the natural, fleshly "house of Judah"? How could that be possible, inasmuch as the natural Jews of those two houses had violently rejected the prospective Mediator of that new covenant and were, as a nation, celebrating the Pentecostal festival on the appointed day at the temple in Jerusalem? God could not do so. He had in mind to conclude the new covenant with the newly born Christian Israel, the spiritual Israel, it having its birth on that very Pentecostal day when the "holy spirit fell upon" the baptized disciples of Jesus Christ, about 120 of them. (Acts 11:15) These had waited, not at the temple, but in an upper room in Jerusalem. There those disciples, already immersed in water, were begotten by God’s spirit to become his spiritual children, "the Israel of God." As such they were introduced into the new covenant through the heavenly Mediator, Jesus Christ, the Prophet greater than Moses.—Acts 2:1-36; Joel 2:28, 29; John 3:3, 5; Gal. 6:16.
12So Jesus Christ in heaven is the Mediator between God and the spiritual Israelites, while these are still in the flesh as men and women. Even within the membership limits of this small "holy nation" the mediatorship of Jesus Christ has expanded, for God has followed a certain order in admitting classes of persons into the new covenant. Thus, for about a year from Pentecost of 33 C.E., Jesus was the Mediator of only those spiritual Israelites who had been fleshly Jews or circumcised Jewish proselytes. About 3,000 of these were added to spiritual Israel on that day of Pentecost, 33 C.E. (Acts 2:10, 37-41) Then, likely in the following year (34 C.E.) as a side effect of the persecution by Saul of Tarsus, the "good news" about the Christ was preached in Samaria and the holy spirit ‘fell upon’ the baptized believers there. (Acts 8:15-17) From then on the mediatorship of Jesus was widened out to benefit spiritual Israelites who had been men and women of Samaria, Samaritans.
13Two years now pass. Finally, in the autumn of 36 C.E., or three and a half years after Jesus’ death and resurrection, he begins to be mediator to a third class of spiritual Israelites, those taken out from the uncircumcised Gentiles, beginning with the Italian centurion, Cornelius. After the apostle Peter reported on this surprising turn of events to the Christianized Jews at Jerusalem, they said: "Well, then, God has granted repentance for the purpose of life to people of the [uncircumcised] nations also."—Acts 8:1 through 11:18.
14More than 20 years after that, Paul was acting still as an apostle to the nations and was finishing his third missionary tour. On his way back to Jerusalem he stopped at Miletus and talked to elders of the congregation at Ephesus, Asia Minor. He told them how he had worked, saying: "I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus. And now, look! bound in the spirit, I am journeying to Jerusalem." (Acts 20:21, 22) He was no longer serving as a Pharisee in the interest of the old Mosaic Law covenant. Rather, as he writes in 2 Corinthians 3:5, 6, "our being adequately qualified issues from God, who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive."
15Whom did the apostle mean here by the pronoun "us"? In the introduction to his letter he identifies for us who are included in "us," by saying: "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy our brother to the congregation of God that is in Corinth." (2 Cor. 1:1) So, both Paul and Timothy were "ministers of a new covenant, . . . of spirit." Paul did not mean by this expression that he and Timothy were a Mediation Board, sharing mediatorship with Jesus. No, for they themselves were mere spiritual Israelites in behalf of whom Jesus served as God’s Mediator. Jesus alone is the "mediator of a new covenant."—Heb. 12:24.
16In writing to Timothy directly, Paul leads up to a mention of the mediatorship of Jesus as he goes on to say: "Hymenaeus and Alexander belong to these, and I have handed them over to Satan that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme. I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men [but not including Hymenaeus and Alexander the blasphemers], concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness.
17"This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all [or, for all kinds of people, margin]—this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of [uncircumcised] nations in the matter of faith and truth."—1 Tim. 1:20 through 2:7.
18Thus Paul exhorted that "supplications, prayers, intercessions" should be made "concerning kings and all those who are in high station." But he was not exhorting Timothy to act as a mediator between God and those public officials. The converting of such public officials to Christianity was not to be the motive behind those "supplications, prayers, intercessions." Who, really, were the ones to benefit from such pleas directed to God? The purpose behind such representations to God was what? "That we [Christians like Paul and Timothy] may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness."—1 Tim. 2:2.
19Leading such a calm, godly, serious life would work for the salvation of Christians who offered these petitions concerning political rulers. Salvation of such inoffensive Christians was "fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God." Why so? Because it is God’s will "that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." In harmony with this the one here called "our Savior" is, not Jesus Christ, but "God."
20What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.
21Paul was writing according to the facts of the first century of Christianity, during which the new covenant had been put into operation. Into it "men" of all nationalities, Jews, Samaritans, uncircumcised Gentiles, had already been brought after being made a part of spiritual Israel. Christ Jesus was the mediator of that new covenant. Paul’s letter to Timothy regarding this was a case of one ‘minister of the new covenant’ writing to another ‘minister of the new covenant.’ That new covenant between "our Savior, God," and spiritual Israel continues as long as there are spiritual Israelites still in the flesh as "men" here on earth. So the covenant is in force today. Jesus’ "corresponding ransom for all" lays the basis for men and women of all sorts to become spiritual Israelites and be brought into the new covenant of which Christ Jesus is the "one mediator."
22There are still more than 9,000 who profess to be spiritual Israelites in the new covenant. Like Paul and Timothy, these are "ministers of a new covenant." (2 Cor. 3:6; 1:1) Evidently the new covenant is nearing the end of its operation for the purpose of producing 144,000 spiritual Israelites who meet God’s approval for being associated with Jesus Christ in the heavenly kingdom, the ideal government for mankind. When the last of these approved spiritual Israelites cease to be "men" because of earthly death and a resurrection to a share in the heavenly kingdom, then the mediatorship of Jesus Christ will cease also. Their inherited sinful condition in the flesh, which called for a mediator to act between them and the God of holiness, will be left behind. Like the holy angels of heaven, these glorified spiritual Israelites will need no mediator between them and Jehovah God. (Rev. 22:3, 4) Under Jesus Christ they will serve as kings, priests and associated judges over all the world of mankind.—Rev. 7:4-8; 14:1-3; 20:4, 6; Luke 22:28-30.
A"GREAT CROWD" OF EARTHLY BENEFICIARIES
23Today, according to authentic records, there is a "great crowd" of dedicated, baptized Christians who actively collaborate with the small remnant of spiritual Israelites. Ever since the spring of 1938 they have been invited to attend the annual memorial celebration of Christ’s death, not to partake of the memorial emblems, the unleavened bread and the red wine, but as respectful observers. They recognize Jesus Christ as their heavenly King since the Gentile Times ended in 1914. They zealously join the remnant of spiritual Israelites in preaching "this good news of the kingdom" in all the inhabited earth for a "witness to all the nations" before this system of things ends in the coming "great tribulation." (Matt. 24:14, 21) They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."—1 Pet. 2:9.
24Yet they do benefit from the operation of the new covenant. They benefit from this just as, in ancient Israel, the "alien resident" benefited from residing in among the Israelites who were in the Law covenant.—Ex. 20:10; Lev. 19:10, 33, 34; Rev. 7:9-15.
25To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites. Why? Because these spiritual Israelites are the "holy nation" of which we read in Jeremiah 31:35, 36, right after God’s promise of the new covenant: "This is what Jehovah, the Giver of the sun for light by day, the statutes of the moon and the stars for light by night, the One stirring up the sea that its waves may become boisterous [against the Egyptians pursuing the Israelites], the One whose name is Jehovah of armies, has said: ‘"If these regulations could be removed from before me," is the utterance of Jehovah, "those who are the seed of Israel could likewise cease from proving to be a nation before me always."’"
26Jehovah could no more let spiritual Israel pass out of existence from within his universal organization than he could let the heavenly luminaries that regulate light for our earth cease to be. In the heavens spiritual Israel will be the New Jerusalem in which Jesus Christ will reign as King over the surviving "great crowd" and all the human dead resurrected to life in a paradise earth.—Rev. 21:2-24.
:They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."?1 Pet. 2:9.
:20 What, then, is Christ?s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."?1 Tim. 2:5, 6.
Did you get your college degree from the Awake! magazine?