Confused this is a very good topic that you bring up. I was baptized in 1983 eight years after the "1975" blunder thinking that maybe the "end of the world" might be a generation away from 1914 whch would be 1984. The JW's never said 1984 but many JW's were kind of thinking that 1984 might be the end. I remember that the whole year of 1984 I was on pins and needles afraid that Jehovah might not see me worthy enough. I was young back then barely out of High School and trying to please Jehovah. Now 20 years later in the year 2004 I see things differently then I did back then. It hurts my heart to see some of the old timers JW's still waiting for Armageddon such as my mom who turned 75 this year and nothing has happened. As I have stated before and I will state again that this is not a JW problem this is a religion problem. Anytime you have a religion or religious group that expects total submission you will have problems. Many Born-Agains have been led to believe that the rapture is right around the corner. I have been hearing born-agains preach that nonsense all of my life and I am only 40 years old. Christians have been let down countless times waiting for the rapture and nothing has materialized. I know of some Born-Agains that have had nervous breakdowns after being programmed to believe in everything the church tells them. Many of my friends who are ex-jw's that went to born-again christian churches have come to me crying that they still feel empty. That grass on the other side was not greener as they thought it would be. I truly believe now that the end of the world is way into the future and that this generation will not see it. People living in the year 2050 or later will probably see the end. I now feel that we have been disillusioned to think the armageddon was around the corner or that the rapture was right in front of us.I have finally woke up and smelled the coffee. Again Confused I like your topic. Ps: Religion will never again controll me.
Hard to get over: No New System
Excellent, RunningMan; hopefully the dyed-in-the-wool die-hard witnesses (poor people) will actually read what their own publications have said on this and many other subjects and stop trying to inflict their empty Watchtower reasonings on those of us who have already gotten ourselves free and clear of the erroneous and harmful teachings of the Watchtower.
Here's another way of looking at this whole thing.. There is a difference between your life plan and your life. You might have had a sucky life plan, but your life is still waiting to be lived regardless. All the intellectualization around it though would be just more planning, it's like when the hell (gasp!) are you going to actually live? You can sit around theorizing about it and all of that, but it would be silly and kind of sad to spend most of your time planning and theorizing about it and never living it wouldn't it?
Can you feel the immediacy in living your life vs. thinking about it in some way? The living is right here, right now - whatever you are doing, doesn't have to be fancy. But it's like show up for it, rather than hanging out rehearsing in the dressing room of the mind or something.
Excellent collection, RunningMan.
Gdt, good to see you here. I hope you'll consider the quotes in RunningMan's post. See, it's a very curious thing. The Society claims that they are imperfect, that they are not inspired of God. But given what they say in the numerous quotes above, I wonder how you would explain the difference between "spirit-directed" and "inspired." Isn't "spirit-directed" just shorthand for "you have to do what we say, but we get to be wrong, and then you have to listen to the new thing we say, but you'd still be wrong for disagreeing"?
it is a big call to tell God he doesn't know what he is doing
Isn't it also a big call to tell God what he is doing? Isn't that in effect what people do by virtue of their beliefs? Actually it doesn't really go as far as that, but if you believe God is a certain way and doing certain things, then it is just a thought in your head. That says nothing about whether God exists outside of your ideas about God, but it does say something about the belief based frame of mind. You know your beliefs, that's about all.
hi mr seattle and mj especially, and the efforts to list wts statements re 'inspired'.
My response? Not once, never, has the wts used the expression 'inspired' applicable to itself. The writers of the Bible? yes. A translation into English? no. but i doubt any scholar today could be emphatic about material not yet unearthed, as is much of the original scripture. But as i see it, those early christians were not 'inspired' by holy spirit but were 'all the other words'.......owzat?
But, all the other similarities, as I take it, say no more than when God's spirit was poured out at Pentecost, and the recipients were to prophesy etc. We know that there were errors made by such recipients, some expecting Jesus' return then, but they were counselled to learn more about the times and the seasons. But whilst their understandings were in error, should we say they were apostates? anti-christ? Much of the christian greek scriptures is to correct the thoughts of some in the congregations, and when Christ at his return in kingdom power does inspect his congregations, (rev.3) are they in Jesus' forecast any better or worse than the wts or congregation of jw's?
Don't think so. So where does it leave us? It should prevent us from arrogance, from misuse of authority, and it should keep us humble and not dogmatic. And not a judge either.
After my years of study etc, i am not as knowledgeable as many posters here on the board and i see many examples of 'knowledge puffs up' in people in and out of the truth, but an effort to have genuine love to build up is more vital, is it not? And whilst having a word here, can i just say that our creator must surely look down on all of us and feel like he did for the Ninevites (and even for the animals). but then it is not up to me to even think what God must think.....I take the words from Jonah credited to God as true, and i just wish good health and good inner peace for all of you. and another thought.......at least no one has been killed by witnesses in any war and blood-guiltiness does not rest on any witnesses for supporting war-mongering nations mentioned in rev.16.
Please, this is not a 'blood issue' discussion either.
Thanks for listening, i did read all references mentioned on this thread, thanks.
Gdt: You're barking up the wrong tree!
Who inspired J. F. Rutherford to proclaim in the 30's that the number of 144,000 was fulfilled?
Since nowhere in the Bible does it says so, when he made the proclamation "he must of seen ot from God himself" thus prophecying!
hi dacheech, a quick note to say Rutherford did not write the book of revelation! Was his understanding of the 144,000 correct? Are you saying you are sure there is no group of 'kings and priests' ? No rulers over future earthly system? No priests to help in the sins forgiven department? Or do you think everyone given everlasting life by God would be 'kings and priests'? Over whom?
Just a couple of thoughts. i've got to go now,
You neither understood my statement, nor answered my question (typical JW turning the subject back on you thing)
My statement did not speak or doubt of the "number of 144,000", but asked you to prove that at that moment (Rutherford's speach)
how could he prove scripturally that the number was complete? (JW doctrine says that the numbers are dwindling, because there are no more
and if you see a new brother taking the emblems, he just replaced a "unfaithful one") What "revelation" did he have?
Revelation speaks of these 144,000, but does not tell us when the number would be completed? He must
of been a prophet from God (more like the Devil) to proclaim himself an interpreter?