Hard to get over: No New System
MJ: In any case we can choose to leave it in the hands of our creator and not let it consume us.
That is exactly opposite of JW mentality "they must know everything"
I totally agree, and believe that people wrote the bible. People interpret the bible. People always want to tell people what to do!
Thus let's just be, and love each other in the mean time!
and it is then a matter of faith in the men who said that they did get revelations from God.Who are these men you are referring to? I hope you do not mean the Watchtower? They are far from it!
Not one of the WT Society writers ever claimed to have inspiration, even the NWT preface expressing that it was a 'translation' not inspired. The only writers of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures can be credited with 'God spoke to them' and they recorded it, even though in fact God used angels as his messengers in all but 3 occasions mentioned in the Bible.
I find it interesting that several of you mentioned that Jesus told the evildoer beside him that he would be 'with Jesus, that very day, in paradise'.
Jesus, that very day, was to die, and be in 'sheol, hades' or the common grave of mankind, dead. It was not til 3 days that he was resurrected, so Jesus and the evildoer alike were to die, Jesus to be resurrected three days later, the evildoer much later when the new system was in fact set up by God with Jesus the Judge, and it truly can be said that anyone then resurrected to life would 'be with Jesus' even though Jesus as the King would not have to be a human back on this restored earth. Hardly paradise for either of them that day though.
Does that make sense?
Cheers, hope you got it clear that I was not suggesting anyone in the Society can claim to be inspired, and in fact never did directly, though the inference was strong that 'God directed them'. The truth of the matter is that God directed only in the sense that his written Word was studied and understood in varying ways........none of mankind can stand up and claim to be personally 'directed by god' in any religion, not Mahommed, Ellen G White, William Miller, CT Russell, JR Rutherford, Joseph Smith, suicide bombers, etc etc.
However, I can understand why Jesus was the only one who could rightfully claim such.
Not one of the WT Society writers ever claimed to have inspiration
Well, no, not "one" - 53.
AW 6/8/86 p9:
?God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God...Jehovah's Witnesses.?
WT 4/15/86 p18:
?So, God?s servants know what this world?s rulers do not. They know Jehovah?s purposes and his seasons... Since Jehovah?s servants of today obey him as ruler, God?s holy spirit also reveals to them what season it is from his viewpoint. Amos 3:7 says ?The sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.?
Survival into a New Earth, 1984, p109
?He has put his ?words?, his message, into the mouths of his servants, for them to proclaim earthwide.?
WT 10/1/82 p26/7:
?The ?prophet? whom Jehovah has raised up has been, not an individual man as in the case of Jeremiah, but a class... At this late date, there is a mere remnant of this ?prophet? class still on earth.?
?Today, a remnant of this 'faithful slave' is still alive on earth. They occupy a position similar to that of Paul...when that apostle said of the wonderful truths...:?It is to us God has revealed them through his spirit.??
WT 6/1/82 p17:
?How vital it is for everyone in God?s family to submit loyally to the teachings and arrangements of the Great Theocrat, Jehovah, and his King-Son, Christ Jesus, as transmitted through the ?faithful slave? on earth.?
WT 10/15/80 p17:
?Having advance knowledge from Jehovah, his servants are equipped - indeed commissioned by God - to herald throughout the world the warning of this system?s approaching end, along with the comforting message of the new order.?
WT 2/15/76 p214:
?Would not a failure to respond to direction from God through his organization really indicate a rejection of divine rulership??
Holy Spirit - The force Behind the Coming New Order, 1976, P 148:
?The announced purpose behind God's pouring out of his spirit upon all sorts of flesh was that the recipients thereof might prophesy. The facts substantiate that the remnant of Christ's anointed disciples have been doing that prophesying to all the nations for a witness in favor of God's kingdom. Logically, then, they must be the ones upon whom God's spirit has actually been poured out. That spirit is behind their worldwide preaching. Why argue about it??
Holy Spirit - The Force Behind the Coming New Order, 1976, P 175:
?Just as at mount Sinai he put his word in the mouth of his chosen people throught the mediator Moses and thereafter he led them under the protective shadow of his hand into the promised land, so he has done for the remnant of spiritual Isreal. He has put his word, his message of the hour, into the mouth of the spiritual remnant for them to confess openly before all the world, for their own salvation and for that of responsive hearers.
WT 7/1/73 p402:
?Consider, too, the fact that Jehovah?s organization alone, in all the earth, is directed by God?s holy spirit or active force. Only this organization functions for Jehovah?s purpose and to his praise. To it alone, God?s sacred word, the bible, is not a sealed book.?
WT 4/1/72 p197:
?So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? This ?prophet? was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as lnternational Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses...?
The Nations Shall Know..., 1971:
?There is an authentic prophetic class of Christians among us. Jehovah has raised up a genuine ?prophet? within our generation. Regardless of how Christendom views or regards this group of anointed witnesses of Jehovah, the time must come, and that shortly, when those making up Christendom will know that really a ?prophet? of Jehovah was among them.?
The Nations Shall Know..., 1971, p 58-9:
?Whom could the real ?chariot? of Jehovah?s organization roll up to and confront that He might bestow upon this qualified one the commission to speak as a prophet in the name of Jehovah?... They were a small minority group of men and women who had dedicated themselves to Jehovah as God by following in the footsteps of his Son Jesus Christ.?
WT 10/01/67 p590:
?...Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them and assigned them the responsibility of serving as his sole visible channel, through whom alone spiritual instruction was to come. Those who recognize Jehovah's visible theocratic organization, therefore, must recognize and accept this appointment of the ?faithful and discreet slave? and be submissive to it.?
WT 6/15/64 p365:
?As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first century christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unprecedented scale. All of this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it.?
?...for God has on earth today a prophetlike organization... Jehovah?s anointed Witnesses on earth.?
WT 7/15/60 p439:
?The facts show that during this time and up to the present hour the ?slave? class has served as God's sole collective channel of communication from heaven to earth for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth ... Thus organizationally the ?discreet slave? class since 1919 has been channeling an ever-increasing flow of Biblical publications by the millions that contain the ?waters of life? featuring Jehovah's will as emanating from God's throne in heaven.?
WT 1/15/59 p40,41:
?Whom has God actually used as his prophet?... Jehovah?s Witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them... Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths.?
WT 6/15/57 p370:
?Jehovah has established a very definite channel of communication through which he deals with his people ... It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the ?slave? as we would to the voice of God ...?
WT 11/1/56 p666:
?Who controls the organization, who directs it? Who is head? A Man? A group of men? A Clergy class? A pope? A hierarchy? Council? No, none of these. How is this possible? In any organization is it not necessary that there be a directing head or policy-making part that controls or guides the organization? Yes!... Is the living God, Jehovah, the theocratic Christian organization? Yes!... because of the fact the heaven-enthroned Christ Jesus is Jehovah's Executive Officer carrying on his work in the earth and because of the further fact that the spirit of God by Christ Jesus.?
WT 6/1/55 p333:
?Similarly today the power of appointment of all servants in congregations rightfully rests with the governing body of the ?faithful and discreet slave? class, which is under the direct supervision of Christ Jesus at the temple.?
WT 4/15/52 p253:
?Jehovah and Christ Jesus reveal the interpretation through their provided channel.?
WT 5/1/44 p138:
?His remnant of faithful followers catch the glory light from the unfolding of the Holy Scriptures, which were written for our day and which Jehovah's appointed interpreter Christ Jesus explains to us.?
WT 10/1/43 p293:
?The Lord by Christ Jesus interprets his prophecies to his witnesses.?
WT 07/01/43 p204:
?The Lord breaks down our organization instructions further and makes them more practicable by further instructing us through his ?faithful and wise servant?. He says, 'Let us assign the field, the world, to special pioneers, regular pioneers and companies of Jehovah's witnesses in an orderly way,sufficient for everyone to thoroughly witness therein, and let us place on each one the responsibility of caring for the New World interests in these respective assignments.? He says the requirements for special pioneers shall be 175 hours and 50 back-calls per month, which should develop into a reasonable number of studies; and for regular pioneers 150 hours and as many back-calls and studies as can be properly developed during that time. And for company publishers he says, ?Let us make a quota of 60 hours and 12 back-calls and at least one study a week for each publisher.? These directions come to us from the Lord through his established agency directing what is required of us. It is our duty to accept this additional instruction and obey it.?
WT 7/1/43 p202-203:
?This Christ Jesus does by acting as interpreter of God's word and making clear the meaning and message of the Bible, to magnify Jehovah's name and purpose and His Theocratic Government or Kingdom...Christ Jesus the King has not entrusted that office to them. The SUPREME COURT STILL INTERPETS, thank God : and Christ Jesus, the court's official mouthpiece of interpretation, reserves to himself that office as Head of Jehovah's ?faithful and wise servant? class. He merely uses the ?servant? class to publish the interprepation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it. How does the Lord God make know the interpretation? By causing the facts to come pass visibly fulfillment of the prophecy or dark saying or misunderstood scripture. Thereafter ?in due season? he calls such fulfillment or clarification of prophecy and scripture to the attention of his ?faithful an wise servant? class. Thereby he makes them responsible to make known the meaning of such scriptures to all members of the household of faith and to all persons of good will, This constitues giving them the ?meat in due season?.?
WT 4/15/43 p127:
?This is not giving any credit to the magazine's publishers, but to the great Author of the Bible with its truth and prophecies, and who now interprets its prophecies. He is that makes possible the material that is published in the columns of this magazine.?
WT 12/15/42 p376:
?Christ Jesus has caused the understanding of the prophetic dramas and pictures to be clear and set forth in the Watchtower publications.?
WT 1/1/42 p5:
?Those who are convinced that Watchtower is publishing the opinion or expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all, because a man's opinion proves nothing except when that opinion is based wholly upon the word of God. Those who believe that God uses the Watchtower as a means of communicating to his people, or of calling their attention to his prophecies, should study the Watchtower with thankfulness of heart and give Jehovah God and Christ Jesus all the honor and credit and give neither honor nor credit to any man.?
New York Supreme Court, King?s County Clerk?s Index No. 15845, 1940, p795, testimony of Fred Franz, Vice-President of WBTS:
Q: Who subsequently became the editor of the magazine, the main editor of
the ?Watchtower? magazine?
Franz: In 1931, October 15th, as I recall, the ?Watchtower? discontinued
publishing the names of any editorial committee on the second page.
Court: He asked you who became the editor.
Franz: And it said ---
Court: Who became the editor?
Q: Who became the editor when this was discontinued?
Franz: Jehovah God.
WT 4/15/39 p125:
?We acknowledge as the visible organization of Jehovah on earth the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, and recognize the Society as the Channel or instrument through which Jehovah and Christ Jesus give instruction and meat in due season to the household of faith.?
WT 6/1/38 p164:
?Lord Jesus Christ directs all things concerning his church, because he is in full command and fulfills completely the places or offices occupied by the apostle Paul and others; and that the instructions given by Paul to Timothy and Titus are also applicable to the ?last days,? where we are now are; and that the ?faithful and wise servant? occupies a place similar to that fulfilled by Timothy and Titus and that the servant now acts under the direction and command and supervision of the Lord Jesus Christ.?
WT 6/1/38 p169-170:
?The Lord Jesus Christ as the head of Jehovah's organization Zion has a visible part of his organization on the earth, which represents the Lord and acts under the direct supervision of the Lord Jesus Christ... ?The Society? acts through its duty constituted servants, recognizing the great fact that God hath set the members in the body as it pleaseth him(1Cor.12:18), which he does by and through his Chief Officer, Christ Jesus. It must be conceded by all who love the Lord that the Lord has perfected and directs his own organization.?
WT 5/1/38 p143:
?The interpretation of prophecy, therefore, is not from man, but is from Jehovah; and Jehovah causes events to come to pass in fulfillment of the prophecy in due time. It is his truth, and not man's ; and when men attempt to give the honor and glory for the message of truth to a man or men, such make fools of themselves. Jehovah provides the machinery, the printing presses, and all materials for the purpose of preparing his fiery message that must be poured out or scattered upon ?Christendom?... They carry the message of truth to the people in printed form;.... They go from house to house, carrying the message of truth in printed form of books and magazines.?
WT 11/15/37 p349:
?The faithful will not be deceived by any such sophistry. God has revealed the meaning of these prophecies to his people... Since 1931 Jehovah witnesses have, in obedience to God's commandment, made a wide distribution of God's message to the people. There has been a wide distribution of such Biblical explanations as contained in the books Vindication, Preparation, Preservation, Jehovah, Riches, Choosing(?Separating the Nations?), Uncovered, Protection, and many others.?
WT 11/1/37 p330:
?Shortly after 1918 Jehovah began to make known to his servant the meaning of some of his prophecies.?
WT 4/15/37 p124:
?Jehovah permits his covenant and anointed people to see the meaning thereof, and these in turn declare the meaning to others who might have an ear to hear.?
WT 2/15/37 p52:
?This foretells that Jehovah's prophecies cannot be interpreted by men, but interpretation is from Jehovah...Christ Jesus at the temple is Jehovah's great Servant and Interpreter, and by God's permission and direction he gives to the faithful ones an understanding of God's prophecies and his coming to the temple. Those who attempt to run ahead of the Lord and try to interpret prophecies to suit their own ideas never get the proper interpretation thereof.?
Yearbook, 1937, p82:
?...the Watchtower, being the means the Lord is pleased to use to transmit his message of truth to the people, is a real comfort to the remnant and the other sheep of the Lord to have this give to them regularly twice each month.?
WT 12/1/33 p363:
?The Lord has used the Watchtower publications, and of fact we have an abundance of proof. No man is given credit for the wonderful truths which the Lord has revealed to his people through the Watchtower publications.?
WT 11/1/33 p296:
?As surely as Jehovah has an organization on the earth, just so surely he is feeding the members of that organization by the hand of Christ Jesus. The facts prove that he uses the Watchtower publications to bring these truths to attention of his remnant.?
WT 11/1/33 p327:
?The scriptures answer that such are gathered to the temple for the purpose of bearing testimony. They are made the witnesses of Jehovah and to them is committed the testimony of Jesus Christ. They are brought into the temple and instructed, that they may know what to say as such witnesses. The instruction the Lord now gives to his people.?
WT 8/15/33 p247:
?Englightenment proceeds from Jehovah by and through Christ Jesus and is given to the faithful anointed on earth at the temple, and brings peace and consolation to them.?
WT 1933 p276:
?It has pleased the Lord to use The Watchtower as a means of conveying his message to his convenant people.?
WT 4/1/33 p99:
?The Lord makes clear in his due time. And he usually reveals the same to his people by having them perform something in fulfillment of the prophecy and then discloses to his faithful the meaning thereof.?
Preparation, 1933 p28
?This question is propounded for the benefit of those faithful ones of the remnant now on earth, and the angel of the Lord brings to them the needed information in answer to their questions. This is proof that the interpretation of prophecy does not proceed from man, but from the Lord Jesus, the chief one in Jehovah?s organization sends the necessary information to his people by and through his holy angels.?
Preparation, 1933 p36,37:
?Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his angels, which include the transmission of information to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how the angels transmit this information, we know that they do it; and the Scriptures and the facts show that it is done.?
Preparation, 1933 p 64:
?The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thought to the minds of his anointed ones. To all on the outside of the organization of Jehovah his is a secret organization.?
WT 4/1/32 p101:
?To the whole series or messages of truth which he gave and which he continues to gives ever since the lighting have been flashing from the temple and upon the record of his word. The expression ?the word?, therefore includes every revelation of truth down to and including the book Vindication and whatsoever shall be revealed and published, by the Lord's grace,as long as the remnant is on earth.?
Vindication, vol 3, 1932, p 250:
?These angels are invisible to human eyes and are there to carry out the orders of the Lord. No doubt they first hear the instruction which the Lord issues to his remnant and then these invisible messengers pass such instruction on to the remnant. The facts show that the angels of the Lord with him at his temple have been thus rendering service unto the remnant since 1919.?
WT 6/1/31 p160:
?Jehovah God has made known to his anointed ones in advance what these scriptures mean.?
WT 11/1/31 p327:
?The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of any of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower.?
?The Watchtower is the channel which Jehovah, our God, is using at this time to in the faithful remnant who are keeping the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.?
Light I, 1930, p106:
?Visible himan creatures had to do with that message, [a resolution adopted at the 1922 Cedar Point, Ohio, convention] yet, in fact, it was a message of the Lord sent through his invisible angels, because without a doubt these are clothed with authority to direct the course of earthly members of God?s organization.?
Light I, 1930, p106:
?It seems clear that the spirit of the Lord, operating by his invisible angels, directed his people on earth to take this action [of distributing a resolution adopted at a convention in Los Angeles in 1923].?
Light I, 1930, p195:
?The Lord foreknew and foretold what was to come to pass, and... he doubtless caused his angels to direct the preparation of exactly what was published.?
WT 7/15/06 p229:
?No, the truths I present, as God?s mouthpiece, were not revealed in dreams or visions, nor by God?s audible voice, nor all at once, but gradually, especially since 1870, and particularly since 1880.?
I just found out that dave and robin, a couple of dubbers who always looked down on me and my family because we did not go to mind control session, have moved into seperat homes,
wow, dubber mariages have never worked any better than any other groupe of people, the reason that I put this on this forum is for this reason, dave got drop pants happy and needed sex, and married his second cousin robin.
Robin is a nice dim minded person, not to be mean eather, she is also.... how to put this, not atractive to men sir.
I knew that is why dave was always very cold to the guys in the hall that had wives that were nice looking, and very nasty to those who had left that has the same.
I knew also that dave was waiting for the big a. to turn a bovine into a queen, and it gets hard to wait and wait for something that is not coming, I will have that nice house, nice wife or hubby, nice kids, we will get horses, sail around the world, see grandma,
learn a to speak a diff. lang. ect. they let life pass them by with saving to go to assemblys,, and buy a four door car to go in service,
and you cant deduct the gas off of your taxes, the socity gets the tax free ride but not you, wait, wait for the real life. I know many out there have heard that one before, how may catch frazes have you all heard when the real life begins, ect. it is becoming clear to many that this is the real life and they squandered it, well I do not feel to sorry for them,
they are the same ones that kicked us in the teeth for questioning,if they come out good for them, but my guess, is they cant afford to abandon the titanic, they have all they are wraped up in it, so they rearange the deck chairs,
Good stuff. Thank you.
When things go wrong or don't come true as they say it's "We're imperfect is all, never said we were God's channel"
All other times it's "We are God's channel and if you disbelieve in any way you are an apostate"
GTD, Basically it gets down to the natural rendering of Luke 23:43 contradicting 2 basic WTS teachings: that someone such as the theif will not obtain a heavenly reward, and that Jesus or people in general do not possess an immaterial spirit and thus neither person could have gone to heaven on that day.
here's a decent treatment of the subject: http://www.geocities.com/thewatchtowerstudy/truly.htm
But in any case I do admire your civility on this board in the face of much opposition. As you can see there is a pretty varied group of viewpoints here. I for one do hold to the Bible as God's inspired word and do not think that questioning the validity of an organization will jeopardize my standing before God.
Very nice collection of quotes Running Man!
There is a finite amount of protoplasm on the earth according to some biologists, hence, protoplasm must die so that protplasm can live. Re-cycling was in long before the green movement.