The quote of the week comes from Seattle Nice Guy:
::Isn't "spirit-directed" just shorthand for "you have to do what we say, but we get to be wrong, and then you have to listen to the new thing we say, but you'd still be wrong for disagreeing"?::
Explain how Jehovah could "direct" them in multiple ways over decades to teach that the "generation who saw 1914 would see the end" - have millions of people teach this for a 100 years and then find out it's not true?
Yet if you were to say "I don't think that the generation doctrine is correct" - you would be branded in the congregation.
If they are "wrong" so often what makes you continue to believe they have "special knowledge" and are directed by God?
Hard to get over: No New System
The quote of the week comes from Seattle Nice Guy:
One sign that the WTS is "inspired" for all intents and purposes in the eyes of JWs is this:
WTS doctrine/interpretation of scripture = "what inspired scripture tells us"
end of discussion.
none of mankind can stand up and claim to be personally 'directed by god' in any religion, not Mahommed, Ellen G White, William Miller, CT Russell, JR Rutherford, Joseph Smith, suicide bombers, etc etc.
Howdy Geoff, I appreciate your candor. You seem to be somewhat open minded, which is an excellent thing since Paul praised the Boreans' skepticism. I do howver, think it is a mistake to quibble over the difference between 'spirit directed' and 'inspired'. Whatever one might think of Jehovah's Witnesses, the leadership over the years clearly does believe that their teachings come directly from Jehovah. Their arrogance in this belief has led them to refuse to admit error, when such error is painfully obvious to all. This attitude, plus many other factors, led me to believe that nothing about that organization is from God. Quite the opposite I believe.
But that's the rub, isn't it? Belief. We all here on this thread can debate back and forth but at the end of the day it all comes down to what we believe, even the existence of God himself. I still maintain that no one knows anything, and we won't until such time as God chooses to tell us himself. Until then all spiritual thought, is just that: thought and belief.
It is, I believe, a mistake for anyone to sit in judgment on another's spiritual beliefs. I feel that, so long as no one is harmed, live and let live. For that reason, I do draw the line on the blood issue and child abuse where Jehovah's Witnesses are concerned. To put the lives of children in danger is unforgivable and contrary everything God (irregardless of religion) is about. I see it happening in that organization, and I recongize the evil of the Witnesses' child abuse policy for what it is. I cannot reconcile a God of love with how I see that organization treating its most vulnerable members.
But that is my belief and also why I'm here and not sitting in a Kingdom Hall.
Opps , forgot to log WildTurkey off.
Confusedjw.....going on that vacation you are talking about will do wonders for your soul. Every year we go somewhere as a family , usually it is while my hubby is working in some city that we take that opportunity to make a vacation out of it for the kids especially.
This summer we went to Denver , Co. while my hubby was working out there. We have been to Denver maybe about 7 times in the last few years for work( hail damage repair on cars) and we love the mountains, the town, just so different from our home in Louisiana.
My oldest son is 17 1/2 and I had been feeling the changes of him growing up so much the last few months , and I was really missing the times we shared when he was younger , and without so many things on his plate as he has now.
He has a girlfriend he has been with for over a year now and I didnt think he would go to Denver with us this time, thinking he wouldnt want to leave her. But to my happy surprise he decided he would join us in going to Denver and we at least have ONE more family vacation with all of us together before he goes off to college.
It was wonderful. We had the money to splurge a little and it was so worth it. I took lots of pictures as usual and we often talked about how lucky we all are to be such a close family. My son, was able to connect back with his little sister and brother and enjoyed the time to just be a kid again with them , like they used to be when they were younger and he had more time with them.
Taking that vacation was priceless to me. I guess we never know what our futures are going to be , even if we are going to be on this earth tomorrow. I love the saying,,,,,,,,," Live today , like it is your last". I was so happy after our vacation that I felt very satisfied with life . It has been months since we came home from vacation and the good vibes are still here. We often look at our pictures and laugh and talk about the good times we have had in Denver.
One of the losses that shocked me was the removal of the "reason" doctrine. For years and years, meeting after meeting, the Witness people wrote and told me the "reason" we were standing on dirty street corners and walking dark streets at night and fighting biting dogs to knock on stranger's doors with mass produced religious literature was to vindicate Jehovah's name.
I was shocked to read in one of the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation's mass produced products that the "reason" has CHANGED. The item said that Jehovah's name NEVER NEEDED to be vindicated.
Our whole mission was an error.
Maybe one of our research specialist members can supply those texts. Great thread, thanks! GaryB
Hello there Chris and Gary,
It was interesting to understand your thinking a bit more, and in the final analysis Voltaire was possibly more correct than we give him credit for.
But one cannot but agree with your summary of life. I just worry that there is spite, even hate, perhaps it is resentment and bitterness, from so many here , anti-jw, and the number of posts mentioning anything at all nice or encouraging and helpful to others is so few. But there none the less.
You men must surely read the wt and awake etc, and give credit where it is due surely. Who is in any position of strength when, as you guys have said, it all gets down to 'belief' and each of us must answer to a 'superior power' because none of us bring the sun up!
Take care and my kind thoughts to you,
and MJ and confused, my same thoughts to you both too. beauty is in the eye of the beholder......and that's true of all races, all shapes, all sizes, all colours, of mankind. We are all 'pink' underneath the skin, aren't we?? Hope so.
Maybe time will reveal a more tolerant wt society in handling some matters, maybe not so much this and that, maybe more loving brotherhood whilst still upholding the bible principles etc, in all of this none of us can bring the sun up, and it behooves all of us to care for others as much as we can.
Just my tuppence worth, cheers,
As Jehovah's Witnesses we were all taught that we were supposed to love truth and hate the lie. Love what is good and hate what is bad.
Gdt is not seeing that he does not hate the lie or hate what is bad, even if he wants to believe he loves what is good. He wants to hang on to the bad within the organization and the lies taught by the organization and still believe he is pleasing "God".
The Bible has stated "God's" view of anyone who presumes to speak or act in His Name when in fact they do not represent the God of the Bible. How can a person cling to an organization that is doing exactly that?
As Jehovah's Witnesses, we were taught that disfellowshipping is a "loving" arrangement. Young people, family, damaged people, etc. are among those who get disfellowshipped. In order to honor a disfellowshipping action, we were supposed to shun these people for as long as they were disfellowshipped and view them in a certain light. I won't go into the "exceptions" just because a certain family member happens to live in the same household.
Jehovah's Witnesses carry this judgment very far; for instance, when a very young person, for example, has humbled himself and has sought the assistance of the congregation elders, seeking reinstatement, and he has cleaned up his life to the satisfaction of these elders, and is obeying their requirements as outlined to him in the private meetings held with him, still he is shunned the entire time he is attending meetings among Jehovah's Witnesses, though this sometimes takes a year or more.
This treatment is completely contrary to the illustration of the prodigal son and is utterly contrary to the very nature of the God of the Bible, as stated at 1John 4:8. Also interesting on this subject of being examined or judged by mere humans who lift themselves up within the congregation as the judges of the other members is what is stated by the apostle Paul at 1Corinthians 4:3-5. The entire disfellowshipping process is unscriptural. Yet, Jehovah's Witnesses like to believe they are being loving by following along with the extreme unkindness shown to others in this way.
Gdt has told some of us in chat that he has served at least temporarily or perhaps short term in the traveling work. Could that possibly be one of the reasons that he makes snide remarks about others being puffed up with pride? For how dare anyone not speak with the utmost respect to a man of his imagined stature?
Anyone who can smile and gladly remain among hidden pedophiles is not a loving, or kind, or truth loving person.
How can there be a pedophile problem in a spiritual paradise? It's not possible.
The reason my tone may remind a reader of spite, hate, resentment, and bitterness . . . . is my enemies are those Jehovah's Witness people who told my sons to shun and snub me. For those Jehovah's Witnesses and their privately owned publishing corporation and the people who support their behaviors, I have contempt, and I do hate them. I will work to their detriment and I wish them a bad life and I wish them the grief they have caused me and my family. I do not forgive them, nor will I ever. What they have done is unforgivable.
Geoff, why do you fit in with them so well? They are not here, but you are. You seem like a paradox. What am I missing? You come here and seem to tell us our feelings and our families are not worth spit, and then you wish us well. Some of us are wounded people and your club members delivered the blows. Are you going to be one of those who is going to wait till they also bite you in the ass before you see the abusive behaviors and the evil of the Jehovah's Witness people? GaryB