Hard to get over: No New System

by confusedjw 101 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  gdt

  GaryB and Mr Seattle,

  I hear you, but cannot agree with your bitternness. Without 'preaching' to you, how about reading Gen 42:24,25; 45:24,1 Sam 24:3-6; 267-13; 2 Sam 1:17-27 about Joseph and David. Or maybe 1 Pet.5:6-10 and Phil 4:11-13.

  I am not stupid, and I do not endorse the errors made by either the wts or its representatives, no more than any of us can endorse wrongs committed by most every bible writer and prophet, at least truth was faced. and kept on public record in the scriptures. For some years I was on circuit work or pioneering. Any 'lies' I expressed by using wt literature with off statements are regretted. Mind you, not much in recent years though.

  But, tell me, who or what is responsible for all the 'good things'? Is it not the same as saying 'there cannot be a God because of all the bad things'.......but who gets any credit for the 'good things'?

  When the creator does act toward mankind (and none on earth will ever know) are you and I able to stand before the judgment seat of God with honest hearts? That's really it, isn't it. In the meantime, you and I are wrong and sinners in one way or another. I have never felt that a 'name-tag' or 'label' has anything to do with God's approval.

  Are you recommending any particular organization I should research for more truth? Any particular man? Who are your 'brothers in the faith'? Who do you believe is 'the entire association of brothers in the world'?

  I will gladly listen to your answers, in the meantime, really be 'mr nice guy' and withdraw your strong judgment of me, unless you have something superior to really offer. And I'll still be happy to share a coffee/beer next time in Seattle!

  Cheers,

  Geoff.
• 

  seattleniceguy

  Hi Geoff,

  Thanks for responding. I thought I'd respond to your post in detail....

  I hear you, but cannot agree with your bitternness.

  I wish you could hear me speak in person, because honestly, there is not a shred of bitterness about me. Perhaps to some degree you are hearing what you expect to hear from ex-Witnesses. Also, it may be that you sensed bitterness because you read my reply at the same time as Gary's, and Gary is explicitly angry. I am not, and I have found bitterness to be counter-productive. I am a calm and happy person.

  But, tell me, who or what is responsible for all the 'good things'? Is it not the same as saying 'there cannot be a God because of all the bad things'.......but who gets any credit for the 'good things'?

  Actually, you misstate my position. I do not claim that "there cannot be a God because of all the bad things." In my opinion, the evidence is sadly lacking to make a statement such as that, just as it is unfortunately lacking to make much of any kind of solid assertion regarding the existence of higher beings, creators or otherwise.

  If there is a Creator in the Bible sense, then he may have good reasons for the bad things, and obviously deserves credit for the good things. No problem. That's totally reasonable. Now if there were just reasonable evidence that he existed, or that he was anything at all like the God portrayed in the Bible, I'd have no issues with believing in the Bible. As it is, however, the evidence against taking the Bible as a literal book from God is incredibly strong. I don't think God would create us as intelligent beings and then expect us to believe unbelievable things. It just doesn't make sense to me.

  When the creator does act toward mankind (and none on earth will ever know) are you and I able to stand before the judgment seat of God with honest hearts? That's really it, isn't it. In the meantime, you and I are wrong and sinners in one way or another. I have never felt that a 'name-tag' or 'label' has anything to do with God's approval.

  Well, in that, I think you are fairly rare among Witnesses. The party line states quite clearly that association with "God's Organization" is a prerequisite for survival. Your statement, on the other hand, seems to acknowledge that people outside the JW organization can have honest hearts.

  For my own part, I can tell you with absolutely clear eyes that I am acting as completely honestly as possible with myself and the rest of the universe. Leaving the Witnesses was the biggest step toward a clear heard and an honest heart that I ever took. The sense of happiness and equillibrium that I felt on getting honest was the most incredible feeling I had ever felt. And I have no fear of standing before God, because I know that if should ever have to do so, he would know that I have acted as sincerely as possible, to the limit of my faculties. I certainly hope I should get to meet some Creator at some point, because I would have a lot of questions.

  Are you recommending any particular organization I should research for more truth? Any particular man? Who are your 'brothers in the faith'? Who do you believe is 'the entire association of brothers in the world'?

  I do not recommend any organization as the source of "Truth," as I think that notion itself misses a few import points. However, I could give you a list of books that have helped me to understand the human condition and the nature of reality thus far.

  My "entire association of brothers in the world" is every man, woman, and child who approaches life with bright eyes and a happy, open heart. There are many, and it is wonderful.

  I will gladly listen to your answers, in the meantime, really be 'mr nice guy' and withdraw your strong judgment of me, unless you have something superior to really offer. And I'll still be happy to share a coffee/beer next time in Seattle!

  Again, Geoff, I don't think I've expressed any strong judgment of you, and I don't harbor any whatsoever. This would be true regardless of whether I think I have "something superior to really offer or not." It would be silly, arrogant, and counter-productive of me to judge you. I'm happy to converse with you, and I'm glad to see you here. I'll be waiting on that coffee engagement. :-)

  SNG
• 

  garybuss

  Geoff, How can you write to Seattle nice guy and South Dakota bad guy in the same post and make it all run together? I think we both deserved our own replies. Seattle is confused because he thinks you think he is bitter and I am upset because I think you think I am a theist. I am not.
  
  I have a raging HOT war running with the Jehovah's Witness people and their Watch Tower Publishing Corporations over the dividing of my family. I am not passively bitter . . . . I am actively PISSED. I think the Jehovah's Witness people are outrageous!
  
  Geoff, how can you distinguish between "divinely directed" and "inspired", on a rational level? That's stupid! It's a distinction without a difference!
  
  My interest in the behaviors of the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation's owners is not specifically the difference between "divinely directed" and "inspired", as much as them requiring reverence and obedience, and blind acceptance as "the channel" as a condition to not be shunned by your parents and your children.
  
  How can you support, even in a perihelial way, a group that "requires" belief in the group leaders or threatens to divide your family if you do not express your belief in the leaders when directly asked by a Corporation volunteer worker? If you support that behavior, you are one of "them". If you do not support outright blackmail, then you are one of "us".
  
  You seem to want to yell "I AM CLEAN", while you are standing in a sewer. What's the deal with that. South Dakota bad guy, aka, GaryB
  
  
  
  
  
  
• 

  DaCheech

  Geoff, how can you distinguish between "divinely directed" and "inspired", on a rational level?

  I guess everytime the WT has taught us something that is proven wrong by either new findings or new light..... Jehovah was dvinely directing them to be worng!

  I think GDT must feel guilty for the part he has had on ruining some lives, and thinks that he can talk us out of hating such ones!

  The Bible gives strong warning of the ones taking the leadership, for they can and will be held accountible of being blood guilty!
• 

  ESTEE

  Geoff wrote:

  the number of posts mentioning anything at all nice or encouraging and helpful to others is so few. ? Maybe time will reveal a more tolerant wt society in handling some matters

  Geoff, I am hearing you speak as if the jws are still to be believed as the organization on earth that God is using ?? I believe as seeitallclearly indicates:

  Seeitallclearlynow wrote:

  The Bible has stated "God's" view of anyone who presumes to speak or act in His Name when in fact they do not represent the God of the Bible. How can a person cling to an organization that is doing exactly that? ? young person, for example, has humbled himself and has sought the assistance of the congregation elders, seeking reinstatement, and he has cleaned up his life to the satisfaction of these elders, and is obeying their requirements as outlined to him in the private meetings held with him, still he is shunned the entire time he is attending meetings among Jehovah's Witnesses, though this sometimes takes a year or more.

  A year or more ?? I know a woman in Saskatoon whose husband is now DEAD ? and has reinstatement taken place ?? NO!!! She is as repentantTM as anyone could possibly be, working with the elders for years! She is completely demoralized and lonely, cut off from an organization that she believes in

  This treatment is completely contrary to the illustration of the prodigal son and is utterly contrary to the very nature of the God

  I couldn?t agree more!!!

  How can there be a pedophile problem in a spiritual paradise? It's not possible

  Geoff, have you looked at the Silent Lambs website at all ??

  Have you read Crisis of Conscience ??

  Are you recommending any particular organization I should research for more truth?

  Again, I ask you, what makes you think God needs an organization ?? I know lots of organizations that are better run and have healthier ethics than the jws.

  Again, my kindest words would be for any exjw who is in the state of healing from the jw abuse ? find a therapist who knows how to deal with cult abuse. Then strip all the unhealthy jw beliefs out of your brain and heart, and replace those archaic beliefs with something healthy. Learn to love yourself. Stop beating yourself up. Lose the umbrella of FEAR. It is the only way to survive!

  Then Go and Live Life!!! Be happy!!! Follow your dreams!!!

  Love,

  ESTEE
• 

  wannaexit

  I also grapple with this from time to time. I try not to think about it.
• 

  M.J.

  I have never felt that a 'name-tag' or 'label' has anything to do with God's approval.

  So you would agree that God judges us as individuals according to his infinite knowledge, not corporately, not by our membership in a club, or according to the recommendation of an organization.
  

  Taking that thought further,
  

  Are you recommending any particular organization I should research for more truth?

  Do we need to look to an organization? Is that where we rest our faith and security (see above)? You are asking the WTS's recommended, "where else will I go?" question.
  

  Any particular man?

  How about Jesus Christ?
• 

  Jez

  Gdt: Are you counting time for these kinds of posts?

  Jesus, that very day, was to die, and be in 'sheol, hades' or the common grave of mankind, dead. It was not til 3 days that he was resurrected, so Jesus and the evildoer alike were to die, Jesus to be resurrected three days later, the evildoer much later when the new system was in fact set up by God with Jesus the Judge, and it truly can be said that anyone then resurrected to life would 'be with Jesus' even though Jesus as the King would not have to be a human back on this restored earth. Hardly paradise for either of them that day though.

  The bible does not say the evildoer was going to be resurrected much later than Jesus. SEEEE...it all boils down to one thing: Interpretation. You can twist, add, takeaway, slant the bible anyway you think is right, it still does not make it 'the truth.' I have said it before and I will say it again, "There is no truth, only ppl's perception of truth."

  I still say, What ever happens will happen. In the meantime, I will do my best to not be guilty by association with an organization that goes against every sensible/loving fibre in my body. The evil that they have done/do ie:preying on ppls fear of death by creating a web of false hopes, outweighs everything for me and I am jumping with joy that my vision is no longer clouded by THEIR interpretation.
• 

  Tuesday

  Actually I found that a little creepy anyway, if you think about it if you lived forever what happens if you end up marrying your great, great, great grandparent. Since they'd be resurrected it's entirely possible, and how would you know that you were related to them? Plus living forever? I get bored with my life now, I can't even imagine if I had to do this forever. Do you want to swim today? Nah I did that for 6 years every day, I'm sick of swimming. Do you want to go horseback riding? Nah I did that for 10 years everyday, I'm sick of horseback riding. Do you want to play guitar? I've done that for 25 years, I know every instrument ever created....you get the point. New system never appealed to me.
• 

  Big Tex

  I just worry that there is spite, even hate, perhaps it is resentment and bitterness, from so many here , anti-jw, and the number of posts mentioning anything at all nice or encouraging and helpful to others is so few

  True, there is quite a lot of anger here. Surely a testament to the Society's egregious errors and abusive treatment if nothing else. If you had spoken with me 15 years ago, I would have been much the same. When I first left, I was hurt, furious at the injustice and very bitter at (in my mind) having been fooled. It took me years to heal from that wound, honestly not completely until I came to this board 2 years ago. It probably shouldn't have taken so long, but I'm a stubborn SOB, or as the song says, "You're a hard one."

  One thing I've learned so far in this life, is that is a journey. Things happen, good and bad, to us almost at random. But really, it is our reaction to those events and what we learn from them that define us. We can choose to learn and grow or to shrivel. Embrace light or darkness. It's our choice.

  Now I'll tell you one of my beliefs. I believe God is terribly interested in us (now why he is I don't know!) and I believe that during times of abuse and mistreatment God is with us as much as we let him. I believe he is interested a little bit in what we do, but much moreso in why we do it. Why do we go to a Kingdom Hall? Why do we stop? Why are we bitter and angry? Why we do what we do tells more about us than anything.

  If God existed, or favored, only one group of people and our lives were dependent on associating with those people (irregardless of their treatment of us) it is reasonable to believe that he would make such very clear and very obvious. Not by the rambling and ever-changing teachings of the Society, but in unmistakable fashion as the Bible describes. Not putting that as a condition mind you, but it is curious to note that he did so in the past, but not now.

  It is more reasonable to believe instead, that this God gave us this world and everything in it. He watches, sometimes participates in, our journey whether in Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. fashion. It is also reasonable to believe that God's creation is worthwhile, and if our own internal protection tells us to leave or that we are being hurt we should listen.

  Has the Society ever done something worthwhile or good? I suppose so. I mean a blind squirrel can find an acorn once in a while, eh? I spent 18 years as a Witness and enjoyed the majority of my time there, in fact I met the love of my life when we were pioneering together. But really those positive memories are more about me and my choices than the Witnesses.

  I guess my somewhat disjointed point in this post is don't be too hard on people here. That you see what you do is as strong an indication that a God who claims the qualities of love, justice and wisdom does not have anything to do with the organization known as Jehovah's Witnesses. But as I've said before, if it works for you then stay with it. I think once you find where you belong, you need to stay there. Just be sure that this place is indeed where you belong.

  Peace.