The most successful teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and an amazing new book on the divine name

by slimboyfat 327 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jwfacts
    SBF - Obviously I don't think Jehovah approves of all modern JWs have done just as he didn't approve every king or action of ancient Israel. Or that being a JW is necessary for survival.

    SBF, you are an atheist. Why are you pretending otherwise for the sake of this thread?

  • Phoebe


    thank you for putting it in a way I can understand. I appreciate it.


    Thank you!

  • jwfacts

    Phoebe, do not be confused by this thread. The opening post is a thought experiment, by a poster that does not believe in Jehovah or the infallibility of the New Testament. He does not believe the outlandish claims he made about this being a topic that vindicates Jehovah's Witnesses, all I can imagine is that he is playing devil's advocate. It is unfortunate that the way SBF's opening post was framed was irresponsible, and has affected you.

    If it turned out that the Divine name appeared in some original manuscripts of New Testament books, it would not vindicate Watchtower, and would end up creating other theological issues around their interpretation about the nature of God.

  • LV101

    SBF - I'm enjoying this topic and appreciate your recap of various scholars. Reading a post here/there as time permits but I don't believe you're an atheist from what I've gathered here -- not that it is anyone's business but I'm confused as ever re/God's name per/NT.

    Can't imagine wrapping my skull around the idea that Watchtower was or is enjoying God's blessings thus their 1950 NWT Bible with his name altho previous translations beat them to it, but I'll carry on reading. What a dichotomy.

  • TheWonderofYou

    The idea of God having a personal name, is mainly owed to the hebrew cultural surrounding in the phase of development of jewish religion, it was a polytheistic surrounding. A name served back then as a distinction to other gods. The proper name expressed the attributes of this godhead is a second factor, the name YHWY doesnt only make it addressable but garantueed a certain closeness of God to his people. The event of the burning bush with the revelation of the name became the saga, which expresses the thought that God is merciful.

    The loss of the original pronunciation is owed to an inner jewish process. Using the proper name today would be the same like celebrating again the polytheism and going back to a time when names distinced gods like in old Israel.The loss of the pronuncation is not due to a loss of attentiveness but a widening of the concept of god to a universal god.

    The jewish community has in the course of the time become aware of the fact that there is only one God for all men and therefore supported that the personal name got less important. If this already began happening during the time when Israel was dispersed and in babylonian captivity is possible. When the hebrew scripture were translated into greek in the 2nd century before christ already "Kyrios" had replaced the proper name in the jewish world, also in the Qumran spricpures the personal name was replaced with "El", God.

  • cofty

    Don't worry Phoebe you did not make a mistake leaving that lying, controlling, child abusing, family-destroying cult who have been right about absolutely nothing since the day Russell tried to work out the date for Armageddon based on the size of a pyramid.

    SBF you are a 'useful idiot'.

  • slimboyfat

    Phoebe I am sorry you have had distress and a sleepless night. It shows you take these things seriously and are a thoughtful person. I would only suggest that there are lots of complex things to consider, not least of which are your personal relationships and how you envisage your life unfolding. JWs have good points and bad points. I would count shunning and lack of freedom of thought as among the bad. Their teaching on the name and refusal to kill brothers in other countries are the best points in my opinion. Those are not exhaustive lists on either side. It's not all black and white. That's what I think I've learned on my own journey so far.

    jwfacts I was agnostic leaning toward atheism. Now I'm agnostic leaning toward belief in God. I'm really not sure what to believe but I think there must be something bigger than ourselves and that JWs have good points as well as bad points.

    Cofty, those sound like fine reasons to leave JWs. Which one of those reasons was it for you? Or didn't you say it was because you disagreed with JWs on the ransom doctrine? But you didn't mention that one on your list.

    I am making a serious point here. People's reasons for joining, staying and leaving are complex. Before 2001 I hardly heard abuse even mentioned as a reason for leaving JWs. Yet now, justifiably, it's a major, if not the major thing former JWs are corcerned about. Crisis of Conscience doesn't mention if once. Everyone's own story and understanding evolves, as yours has done. The reasons you initially left are not the same as the list you give now. And no doubt there is room for more development. If people stop on the way out, to consider the good and the bad, and make a considered choice, how can that be a bad thing?

  • OrphanCrow
    sbf: Before 2001 I hardly heard abuse even mentioned as a reason for leaving JWs. Yet now, justifiably, it's a major, if not the major thing former JWs are corcerned about.

    Just because you didn't hear about it, doesn't mean that it wasn't a large issue in many who left before you "hardly heard" about it.

    The way you have worded your position, assumes that your position is correct. It isn't. It is only your view and it is lacking in perspective. Your statement leads the reader to think that abuse was rarely, if ever, the reason for leaving. That is not a valid conclusion. It is misleading.

  • Fairlane

    @sbf...." must be something bigger than ourselves " Is that not humanistic reasoning that got this whole 'god' sorry mess thing started back in the mists of time. Imo its about time the human race got real and kicked it into touch. We have the ability as a modern educated race to do so without hindrance from posts such as this claptrap! !

  • slimboyfat

    I'm not saying it wasn't an issue just because people didn't talk about it. Quite the opposite. The point I'm making is that people's reasons for leaving or staying are not static, either on a personal level or as a community.

    That's why many people who leave for religious reasons ("Jesus is my mediator") later find themselves to be atheist, and so on. It's a complex situation and I don't buy into the idea that all departures or arrivals are unqualified good or bad. The destination and nature of the journey are important too, and to recognise others have their own paths.

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