Balls of Steel or just plain stupidity ???

by Xandria 95 Replies latest social current

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    One doesn't have a CHOICE on whether to deploy or not.

    Sheila, we're talking about George Bush jr during the Vietnam war, not your son in the volunteer army of 2003. It's common knowledge that Bush was able to pull strings to get out of Vietnam. Whether you think that is a bad thing or not is another matter. Vietnam was nasty business, and we tend to forget just how many American men were coming home in body bags (at night, so the folks at home wouldn't see them, the good old pr machine in action back then).

  • wednesday
    wednesday

    i disagree sixy, anyone in Iraq is in harms way. U won't see me flying over there.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Gumby

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Stacy, a good web site to check out stuff that sounds like an urban legend is Snopes.com

    The "info" you posted about Clinton is an urban legend. No federal felon, no pardon by Carter. All just made up out of whole cloth by someone who didn't give a shit about the truth. I hate people like that.

    The documentation on Clinton's avoidance is actually fascinating, he was very much opposed to the war, and treaded very carefully in order to stay out of it while not becoming a "resistor" and thereby killing his future ambitions.

    So far, my research leads me to believe that, yeah, I can certainly respect Clinton's avoidance every bit as much as I can respect Bush's avoidance. I feel pretty sure that Bush didn't spend any sleepless nights wondering about the morality of the war.. he just doesn't strike me as the type. But hey, I'm gonna read up on the history of Bush back then, who knows, I might be surprised.

    Here is a perspective piece on the reporting of the subject (highlighting mine):


    November/December 1992 | Contents

    Campaign Issues

    DRAFT

    by William Broyles, Jr.
    Broyles, former editor-in-chief of Newsweek and California magazines, was also founding editor of Texas Monthly. A decorated Marine corps Vietnam veteran, he is the author of Brothers in arms: A journey from War to Peace, an account of his return to Vietnam in 1984. He was co-creator and executive consultant of the television series China Beach, and creator and executive producer of Under Cover, another series.

    As the coverage of Bill Clinton's draft history and its coverup reminds us, the Vietnam war, which brought out the best and worst in America, did the same for the press. In the beginning the stories were all body counts and no context, no history, no help. the good news is that these dumb simplifications gradually gave way to more thoughtful complexities. The story, over time, got told.

    I should begin this with a personal disclaimer. I was at Oxford just before Bill Clinton and, like him, did everything I could to hang on to my draft deferment. Like him, I finally got a deferment -- mine in the Peace Corps, his in the ROTC. But, as he claims to have been, I was troubled by the inequity in my success: Why should I be safe when my friend from high school were having to fight and die? I had found a way to live, but I couldn't live with myself. So, as Clinton says he did, I gave up my deferment and made myself eligible for the draft.

    There the comparison ends. I went to Vietnam and, unless he is holding back still more information, Bill Clinton did not. That is close to the complete list of facts about this story of which I am personally aware. Did the reporting on this issue add to the truth of the story, or not?

    The first wave of coverage, during the early primaries, showed resourceful reporting, but was too often generationally tone deaf. The implication was that avoiding the draft during Vietnam was the moral equivalent of turning your back on America after Pearl Harbor, and not the accepted practice of an entire generation of college student. It was as if a younger generation of reporters had been let loose without the counsel of older male writers, editors, and new producers, most of whom had themselves evaded the draft.

    This simplistic approach was followed by more thoughtful articles of the confusing moral issues the war raised. The newsweeklies were among the first to weigh in with the "how it really was back then" stories. In February, Time editor at large Strobe Talbott, one of Clinton's Oxford roommates, wrote a personal defense of the sincerity of Clinton's behavior and recounted the story of another roommate, a draft resister, so troubled by the war that he eventually killed himself.

    Time also brought out the thoughtful Lance Morrow, who asked: "Has the statute of emotional limitations run out on Vietnam? . . . Was a prosecutorial press stirring up artificial controversy about something relatively unimportant that happened years ago when Clinton was young? Were the political media roaring along heedlessly aboard a sort of Heisenberg Express, distorting the process even as they observed it?

    Well, were they? Morrow doesn't say. He works for Time. He doesn't have to answer questions, just ask them. Over at Newsweek, Jonathan Alter suggested that part of the press's enthusiasm for this issue came from reporters who wanted Clinton to step up and vindicate their won opposition to the draft and the war. David Hackworth, Newsweek's military affairs expert and one of the few Vietnam veterans on the story, argued that he would have doubted Clinton's judgment far more had he enlisted in 1969, since by then the war had deteriorated into a bloody, pointless stalemate.

    Moral complexities are bad for headlines, so the press found itself playing down the choices Clinton made then and focusing on his increasingly tortuou explanations of those choices now. Although ABC News dug up Clinton's now-famous 1969 letter to his ROTC head -- which Clinton then released in a defensive move -- the toughest and most solid reporting was almost all in print. Jeffrey H. Birnbaum of The Wall Street Journal, who on February 6 broke the original story of Clinton signing up for an ROTC unit he never joined, was out front early and, with William Rempel of the Los Angeles Times, stayed there. In September, when it printed the most comprehensive, balanced account of what actually happened, the Times also turned up the efforts of Clinton's uncle to delay Clinton's physical and to get him a place in the Naval Reserve.

    The Republican attack apparatus helped keep the story alive, even as polls were showing that voters were much less interested in this issue than the press seemed to be. The Republicans could hammer the issue of credibility and draw the constant, unspoken contrast between Bill Clinton, Draft Dodger, with George Bush, War Hero. But if the issue was Clinton's credibility, why was the attack carried at the beginning by Bob Dole, whose crippled arm was a vivid reminder of his own war service? Why even refer to Bush's war service at all?

    For a time, the Republican attack diverted attention from the fact that so few leading Republicans had served in Vietnam. To its credit, the press refused to be diverted. Stories homed in on the questionable war records of leading Republicans like Dick Cheney, Rich Bond, Pat Buchanan, and the man most likely to be inspired by George Bush's war record, his son, George W. Bush (who rushed to fulfill his patriotic duty in that haven of draft evaders, the National Guard). In an op-ed piece in The Washington Post on the day Bush and Clinton addressed the National Guard Association, James Fallows wrote that "listening to Bush campaign strategist Mary Matalin Call Clinton a draft dodger made me feel like women must feel when men lecture them about abortion."

    Again, however, the initial breathless reporting was evidence of how so much of daily journalism lives in a void, ignorant of history, even its own. A few months after the fall of Saigon, Fallows wrote a memorable article called "What Did You Do in the Class War, Daddy?" Fallows, who starved himself to get a deferment, tallied his 1,200 Harvard classmates and found only fifty-six who had entered the military at all, and only two who had gone to Vietnam.

    What kept the story going was the persistent belief that Clinton had not leveled about what the did, that in his record was the smoking gun. Clinton answered the questions he was asked, most of the time truthfully. But a lot of small truths didn't add up to the larger truth, indeed added up to some troubling questions about just whether Bill Clinton even knew what the truth was. What, exactly, does that say about his character? That he is a liar, that he has selective memory, that, as the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette argued, he has a contempt for history -- or that the mind is a mysterious thing?

    Reading all this coverage I found myself wondering if the press is too blunt an instrument to probe such sensitive psychological terrain. How well would we journalists answer shouted questions about what we did twenty-five years ago?

    When journalists who didn't serve are asked about the war, they tend to become . . . Bill Clinton! I asked the Journal's Jeffrey Birnbaum, one of the most responsible and resourceful reporters covering the story, about his own history. First, he pointed out that he himself had had a draft number, implying he had been caught up in the war. Then he mentioned it was a high number, but, when asked, at first couldn't remember exactly what it was. I pointed out that by the time he turned eighteen, the earliest he could possibly have been drafted, all American combat troops had been withdrawn from Vietnam. Then he remembered that he had been 4-F all along. I suspect many male reporters and editors, if put on the spot, would give equally tortuous explanations.

    But why use other journalists when my own case is worse? Shortly before I wrote this story a friend reminded me of how he had tried to get me a direct commission at the Pentagon to save me from going to Vietnam. Even though this was for me a matter of life and death, I had completely forgotten about it. If I had been asked, I would have denied the story with utter conviction. But it was true.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    i disagree sixy, anyone in Iraq is in harms way. U won't see me flying over there.

    well, I know a few people who think that Oak Cliff is bad news, and in all seriousness suggest that I put myself in harms way when I go there. But I don't think anyone should be giving me a "balls o' steele" award just because I visit people in Oak Cliff. There are other reasons for that, lol.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    So, bush was in iraq for only two and one half hours?? Just how many dusty grunts did he meet and actually talk to? Did he give any rousing speeches? If so, how many were awake to hear them? Or, did he just shake the clean hands of the top brass, smile for the cameras and jump back into waiting air force one?

    Btw, i think he fulfilled some bible prophecy or other Something in daniel or maccabees.

    SS

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    Dakota, if you were in the National Guard in the circumstances that Bush was, during Vietnam, you were indeed dodging the war if not the draft;

    And just what influence was that? Doesn't that also apply to the rest of the men serving in his National Guard unit? He was hardly the only person serving in it.

    I met more than one National Guard pilot in Vietnam that was activated to active duty. To now claim that Bush was kept out by his father just opens the door that Al Gore must have been a cush reporters job in Vung Tau for the few months he served there.

    When I enlisted in 1969, I had a commitment of 6 years total service, 3 active and 3 inactive reserves. Draftees had a 6 year commitment, 2 active, 4 inactive reserves. Al Gore had an enlistment of 2 years only. He and I were there about the same time. Vung Tau was a much nicer area than was An Khe.

    Had Bush been called to active duty and pulled some of the moves that Clinton did to avoid the draft, also covered as truthful on Snopes website, I would have voted for someone else. Regardless of what you may think of the man, do you have any idea of what goes into training a man to fly fighter jets? Try and see if you can pass the course and qualify for fighter jets, most don't.

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed
    So, bush was in iraq for only two and one half hours??

    Yeah, so? Is there a time commitment he must spend?

    Just how many dusty grunts did he meet and actually talk to?

    Fox News and CNN both reported about 600 in the mess hall where he joined them for dinner and actually showed video of him serving them food.

    Did he give any rousing speeches?

    I enjoyed hearing it, you may not have. It seems the 600 or so soldiers in the tent appreciated the visit, the speech and the company. They sure broke out in applause when he unexpectedly walked out from the back.

    If so, how many were awake to hear them?

    I didn't see a closed eye there. Nice dig, but inaccurate as can be.

    Or, did he just shake the clean hands of the top brass, smile for the cameras and jump back into waiting air force one?

    Maybe you could actually watch some news reports or read a newspaper to find out for yourself?

    But, since you seem somewhat taken aback at this visit, may I ask what is your opinion of the *junior* Senator from New York also making a visit to Afghanistan and Iraq today also? Shouldn't your questions equally apply to her visit? After all, what does a *very junior* Senator need to travel there for anyway? Maybe she misses the limelight? Or, maybe she is trying to make sure she appears as being tough too, in case she decides to jump into the Presidential race this year?

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    To now claim that Bush was kept out by his father just opens the door that Al Gore must have been a cush reporters job in Vung Tau for the few months he served there.

    hhmmm, maybe this is some history I need to read up on as well; I thought that that pretty much sums up exactly what Gore's time in 'nam was?

    do you have any idea of what goes into training a man to fly fighter jets?

    Yes. And not a bit of it has anything to do with his qualifications as a leader either.

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    Six, there are rumors that Gores Dad, a prominent Senator at the time, kept Al Jr. out til towards the end of his enlistment. There are also rumors that Nixon did it, which I find sort of hard to swalllow. Regardless, his Vietnam service he likes to laud and show pictures all dressed up as fighting soldier, are bunk. He carried a camera and I doubt he ever fired an M-16 over there.

    Back in the 60's, I don't believe George Sr. was all that high within the government as to be able to pull many strings, unlike the father of Al Gore Jr. I'll have to check up on it, but so far, no one has presented anything but conjecture on this claim.

    All Officer Candidates, regardless of job or training, have to complete several leadership courses to even become Officers. You know, I bet he even took many of the very same courses that Clark did too.

    Gumby, as to the article about GWs IQ, try again. The insititue listed exists nowhere within ths country and the article is nothing more than a political jibe. It's not true at all.

    http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.htm

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