Can you be a JW who does not have the GB as their leader?

by DoubtingThomas 99 Replies latest jw friends

  • Vanderhoven7

    The disciples. Your point?

    So has the blood of Jesus Christ cleansed you of all your sins? I John 1:7

    Do you have the indwelling Holy Spirit? Romans 8:9-11

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz
    It's the easiest way to being branded an apostate if you start asking this kind of questions
  • DoubtingThomas

    No-it was his Apostles. Not the disciples in general.

    And to them he made a special promise....

  • DoubtingThomas

    Everything is THERE.

    BUT- Church-goers see it only thru church dogma.

  • Introvert 2
    Introvert 2

    To OP a few posts above : Ray Franz's books were much needed at the time. I have enormous respect for him, he dared step out and shine light on what was actually going on behind the curtain so to speak. As for making money on his books what concern is it of yours when the WT made HUGE money on their real estate and exploitation of the brother's free labor ? He put in the work and got paid for it a little, seems perfectly fair to me don't be so narrow minded please. I was there myself not so long ago.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    DT, you don't have to go to church to get your sins forgiven. I conducted 8 to 10 bible studies every month as a regular pioneer. I was an expert on WT doctrines. I would come in contact with Christians in the door to door work and many would invariably ignore my intro and ask me if Jesus was my personal savior. I and my JW friends would mock them as being self centered, sappy & we couldn't understand why they were so hung up on this "personal savior" thing.

    Years later I read Hebrews 9: 27 where it says "it is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgement".

    Then I suddenly understood why all those householders wanted to know if I had a personal savior. It was because they knew that there was going to be a personal judgement.

    The WT tries to pretend that they have a corporate contract with God like the Israelites did in the OT. They imagine that all you have to do is get into the modern day "ark".

    Israel had a national contract with God through Moses as their mediator.... but it only guaranteed the survival of the nation as a whole. The NT contract in Mt. 26: 27-28 is a personal contract (better terms with better promises) that guarantees the forgiveness of sins. It is a blood covenant in the fullest sense of the term... to the death of both parties. There are only two names on the contract.... Jesus and the believer.

    Jesus isn't saving nations, churches or organizations with his contract offer. It is offered to individuals. It is the only offer anybody will ever get for the forgiveness of sins, whether they live in the Church Age now, or later in the Millennium. The future location of the individual has nothing to do with it.

    Your good works won't save you , your church won't save you, and you can't save yourself. Only the blood of Jesus can save. Just as the original Passover night required a blood covering over the door header.... since Calvary we must be under the blood to be saved FROM JUDGEMENT.

    There are three scriptures you will never hear read at the KH. I have already presented you with two of them. The third is this:

    Is. 64:6 "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"

    Notice that it is not your sins that are filthy, but your righteousness. Paul backs this up with the statement, "there is no no righteous, no not one".

    If you still disagree... then WHAT will save you in place of the New Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins"?

    What say you?

  • DoubtingThomas

    Sea Breeze, I was all that.

    BUT, I mastered not WTBS dogma but the scriptural truths, as I read th e Bible thru a NUMBER of times, the last few doing deep research into the cultures and translations.

    "The Blood" is used as a mantra- the sacrifice Jesus made is being referred to- and you don't even believe Jesus DIED as he told his followers he would!

    But, you are correct, "the blood", the sacrifice Jesus made covers our sins.

    I have never met a brother or a sister that doesn't believe that.

  • jonahstourguide

    Well Folks,

    I've been following this thread with interest.

    Most entertaining and thought provoking if you are religiously inclined.

    As time has passed I have become less inclined to follow the writings of the old and new testaments due to the many translation options utilised by many to support their own eisegesis.

    In relation to this debate however, Vanderhoven7 and Sea Breeze have provided the best refutations to the wayward lines of reasoning presented by Doubting Thomas.

    Sea Breeze, top of the class.

    For me, If you are going to believe, the presenter of a notion needs to make sense. So far, Doubting Thomas has not.

    Much akin to the experience of Sea Breeze, I have been there and done that and then chose a different direction.

    Sea Breeze and Vanderhoven7 do make strong arguments that simply (or complicatedly) cannot be refuted by using any semblance of current watchtower theology.

    So,, A great debate that exposes watchtowers failings.

    Thank you all


  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    But, you are correct, "the blood", the sacrifice Jesus made covers our sins. I have never met a brother or a sister that doesn't believe that.

    The value of the blood covering is ONLY accessible through the New Covenant - Read it again:

    And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.

    JW's live a life of total rebellion against the authority of Christ. There is simply no way to apply the blood covering without entering into this agreement. Many people (not just JW's) have made the mistake of going through their church affiliation (or some other way) to get access. But a person must do business directly with Jesus.

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber......I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved - John 10

    Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is NONE of his.” - Roman 8: 9

    It is a complete deception that imagines that a person can be friends with Jesus by disobeying his commands to get their sins forgiven as prescribed in Mt. 26: 27-28

  • DoubtingThomas

    Denial. Sea Breeze doesn't believe Jesus ever died, so she calls Christ a liar & deceiver.

    And you trust her?


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