What is the alternative to JW?

by Formerbrother 475 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jhine
    TTWSYF , yes l think that we can safely say that ! LOL Jan
  • Half banana
    Half banana

    Acty person let me make a point. I mentioned climate history to clarify and illustrate what a fact is. We can only find out what anthropogenic, i.e. humanly induced, climate change is by having a researched and analysed understanding of the normative factors in climate behaviour over geological time.

    This modern and necessary approach is the only way to find resolutions to difficult problems. But by enormous and striking contrast; the carrying forward of the obsolete pattern of faith and belief in spirits is a colossal waste of human energy, time, manpower, money and direction.

    The world has changed and sorry to say you have not spotted it.

    No longer can religious belief mobilize people to improve humanity, that day has passed. We can now be grateful to the human intellect for the comfort, health and longevity we now enjoy through scientific method and application. In this new technologically based world we have the time and health to help our families to improve their lot...not prepare them for the fulfilments of stale ancient fables or pervert their minds with ludicrous and dark tales of devils and divine wrath.

    Belief in gods and devils was an idea from the nursery of mankind. It reached its zenith in the dark ages when the church ruled the peasants in abject fear. My goodness it’s a much happier prospect without those grim fantasies.

    Please recognise that the basis for faith is found in the emotions not in facts... there is no solid ground for belief in belief. It may make you happy... but it never delivers.

    However if you have evidence for what you are saying is true, let us know.
  • Acts5v29

    Acts 5 - You continue to totally refuse to deal honestly with the fact of evolution.

    Your entire theology is predicated on a literal Edenic paradise that never existed.

    This is your "Inconvenient Truth".

    You know how these forums tend to go - a bludgeoning without end which really leads nowhere.

    I think you have mistaken what the ministry is for...

    You mention evolution and could mention other things to do with proof of God. I understand these have been a comfortable sanctuary - a seemingly unbreakable closed door in the face of God-debates - but what I placed before you is not regarding proof of God or of Eden or anything else. I cited to the 1st prophecy in whichever extant (therefore irrefutable) scroll of Genesis which predates the (also irrefutable) climate crisis - the prophecy alone, and the climate crisis. These alone are the predicate - anyone worth their salt will see that they are distinct from extraneous intrusions.

    the ministry is not to prove God's existence to non-believers, nor to add to the melée and jousting, nor to undermine other faiths, but to take away the fear of the future in those who do believe, and provide somewhere to look for those who do not. The starting point for non-believers therefore is not the prophecy, but the nemesis crisis. As we run out of options - and the crisis has its own impetus, so we do not have the luxury of time either - this ministry's suggestion will have given something to look back on as a potential context and solution to the problem. In this way, God is making it so that "salvation" - as in being rescued alive - is open and reasonable to everyone who hears it, without the debate of trinity, rapture, hellfire, faithful and discreet slave, Judaism or anything else: it is all down to what we see when we look out of the window, and where - ultimately - we shall turn when we admit we need help.

    If you do not believe in God anymore, or you do not wish to think about it - please, be my guest. I'm not trying to make people uncomfortable (quite the opposite!)

  • cofty

    Acts - I have never asked you to support the existence of god.

    I have asked you three times to respond to the challenge that the fact of evolution contradicts the foundation of your theology.

    You are still avoiding this "Inconvenient Truth".

  • wizzstick

    Firstly the issue:
    The 1st prophecy in the scriptures is Genesis 2:17 where God essentially warned the first humans:

    "if you go independent of Me, it will bring about your demise"

    The proof of that is in two parts: the climate crisis is already far along the way to proving that civilisation cannot survive without help, and God's intervention will give proof that He can provide it.

    Given that this 1st prophecy far predates the climate crisis, and given that we are rapidly running out of options, is it not reasonable to give a measure of credence in the pairing of the two?

    1) There was nothing about going independent of God in Gen 2:17. It talks about eating from a tree and if they did they would die that very day:

    But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

    You do two things with that scripture that means you follow the belief systems of other religions. You interpret that scripture to mean something other than what it says. All that verse says that if you eat from this tree then you die. And clearly that verse is untrue as they didn't die that day. There is nothing about going 'independent of God'.

    You presumably follow the belief systems of other religions by interpreting that 'day' doesn't mean day as in the 24 hour period of time. Even though there is nothing to suggest that it isn't 24 hours. There is no prophecy here. If it was a prophecy (history written in advance) then it would suggest that God knew that Adam and Eve would eat of the fruit. Which means they were always going to do so. So much for free will!

    With no logical reason you then connect the climate crisis to this scripture (not prophecy as explained above). This is a leapt of imagination.

    Second is supplemental:
    the issue has nothing to do with belief, nor doctrines, nor religion - it is concerned with authority. God had authority over the earth, and Mankind usurped it

    This is easily dismissed.

    You are (and correct if I'm wrong) suggesting that Adam was the first man. But he wasn't. Humans lived long before c. 4,000 BC. We are related to Neanderthals. This is a genetically different humanoid species to us. Yet it's been recently discovered that about 2-7% of yours and mine DNA (it varies depending on where we originated from) comes from Neanderthals. This is because our ancestors had sex with Neanderthals. You can't actual with genetics. It's simply a fact.

    So how do Neanderthals fit into all this? You have a humanoid species on Earth, living for 100,000 years before us. Were they created by God? Why did he let them breed with humans (homo sapiens)? How do they fit into God's 'authority' given they were living independently, hunting animals, long before this time period of 4,000BC? Predating it, to use a word you like.

    Reason, therefore, does NOT impel credence.

  • Acts5v29

    The scriptures are clear that violation of that warning in Genesis 2:17 brought about a split between God and men - a split caused because man chose independence. That it is a prophecy is clear: 'can we survive without God, now that we are independent' - and the atheistic views show that we are independent.

    The climate crisis, it is merely a catalyst - it could have been anything which was significant enough to prove that we cannot manage alone. However, this crisis is undeniably huge. As it grows too large to cope with, should people still say:

    "We've no idea what to do, and this ministry points to something which claims a context and a solution, but even though we're days away from total collapse we will not consider it until worshipJehovah.org addresses the question of evolution / Neanderthals / length of a day/ ..."

    would that be reasonable? Up to now, all the rebukes have been in that very vein - is that reasonable? The ministry does not ask for or rely on faith in anything, it asks nothing of you but mental shelf-room - so why the vitriol?

  • Acts5v29


    Evolution does not contradict the foundation of this ministry. The two components - manuscripts which state the prophecy as the 1st, and the climate crisis - both clearly exist.

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    Mr Acty, I’m not sure we have vitriol here, just an argument. As an ex JW I have a hyper-allergenic reaction to the word "ministries". That may just be me but I have learned my lesson.

    Many on this site have come to realise that the reason why JWs are wrong is the same reason which disqualifies all theism and belief in a spirit world; it is fable.

    How can you with any experience of modern education believe that a supernatural being which is undetectable by the five senses, has done this or that and wants everyone to believe in him and if you don’t believe he exists, or do what he says... you get murdered by him?

    How on earth could anyone believe such rubbish and claim it to be sacred?

    There is the same degree of evidence for this as for fairies at the bottom of the garden.

  • Acts5v29
    This ministry does not say "Believe in God or you'll die" - quite the opposite: God will rescue everyone alive when He intervenes. Besides, it is to point out where to look for the context when the crisis becomes intolerable - those who see it in advance will lose their fears, but those who don't will know where to look.
  • Half banana
    Half banana

    There are no records of God ever intervening in crises and he never will. A real loving father would not drown most of his children in a flood or shake millions to death in an earthquake would he?

    Instead he is a psychological projection of idealized fatherhood, a 'rescuer' patterned on a universal family childhood experience, a hope, a comfort blanket for the desperate... but not a concrete reality.

    He only ever exists in people's imagination.

    The Bible was made not by a divine hand but it is drawn from the culling of near eastern literature, notably from Egypt, Persia and Babylon, which were the political masters of Israel. Its application was re-written to feed the emotional and nationalistic needs of the benighted peasants of the highlands of Canaan. It incorporates its neighbour's wood and stone idols such as the god Yahweh the son of El. Most of the Bible is borrowed from other sources, it is rarely original. it often espouses the very worst aspects humanity and of political enforcement, male chauvinism, turbo-charged religious chauvinism, homophobia, genocide and mega-death.

    The Bible is a nasty piece of literature to base your life on.

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