by Beth Sarim 168 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
No that is your problem for you do not exactly or precisely what year Jerusalem whether it was 586 or 587 BCE whereas WT has identified the exact year as 607 BCE and that is the very stark difference.
I'm confused (Not for the first time...)
How are Jehovah's Witnesses immune from the uncertainty inherent in the Bible itself, over the counting system in use vis-à-vis the reigns of kings?
Do not Jehovah's Witnesses themselves date Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the metal image to 606/605 BCE?
Do not Jehovah's Witnesses themselves date Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the metal image to 606/605 BCE?
More proof that the WTS can twist the Scriptures anyway they want and JW’s just believe and accept it.
Notice in the following the WTS claims that 624 was Neb’s 1st official year as his kingship.
[Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p. 480 - In 624 B.C.E., in the first official year of his kingship, Nebuchadnezzar again led his forces through Hattu; he captured and sacked the Philistine city of Ashkelon.]
Now notice what Dan 2:1 says:
[In the second year of his kingship, Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar had a number of dreams, and he* was so agitated+ that he could not sleep.]
Okay, even though the WTS claims Neb became king in 625 (which we know it was really 605) they say 624 was his 1st official year of his kingship. So with that being said and using that date (624) then based on Dan 2:1 then Neb’s 2nd year of kingship should be 622 (623 if we use 625), so we should expect that the WTS says Dan 2:1 occurs in 623/622…but NO instead they say Dan 2:1 occurred in 606/605.
They twist the Scripture to say that he became ‘world ruler' in 607 but the Scripture reads that it was in the 2nd year of his KINGSHIP.
[Pay
Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy! p. 46-48 - “In the
second year of the kingship of Nebuchadnezzar,” wrote the prophet Daniel,
“Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams; and his spirit began to feel agitated, and his
very sleep was made to be something beyond him.” (Daniel
2:1) The dreamer was Nebuchadnezzar, the king of the Babylonian
Empire. He had effectively become world ruler in 607 B.C.E. when Jehovah
God allowed him to destroy Jerusalem and its temple. In the second year of
Nebuchadnezzar’s reign as world ruler (606/605 B.C.E.), God sent him a
terrifying dream.]
TD - there is no uncertainty regarding the reigns of the king - IF - you bother counting the years properly. And you have to read the scriptures very carefully to do that work.
Once you get to the reigns of Cyrus, Artaxerxes, etc, they are dealt with in an entirely different manner. Their reigns are only mentioned for the purpose of the tiny bit they are used for. Nothing else is allowed to be known because they are irrelvant to the prophecies to do with the coming of Jesus Christ.
The scriptures provide enough into to go from Adam 1 to Adam 2, providing you don't put any dates in and just go by events and ranges of time.
You can debate the 70 years (I'm no expert so I wont go there) but the info is there if you want to work through it.
Once you get to the centre of histroy, ie Jesus Christ, he, Jesus says he'll return at an unknown day and hour.
And yes Watchtower do date the metal image to 606 BCE, and that dream took place in the 2nd year of Neb. Jerusalem fell in the 19th year of Neb which they say is 607 BCE. So Neb's 19th year of rulership is followed by his 2nd year of rulership. Logic of the Watchtower. Only bettered by their saying Jehoiakim ruled for 11 years and died in the 3rd year of his rulership.
WoW. OMG.
I just posted this video on here last week to share a video I thought was interesting.
But with this thread. I've created a monster!!!!
It seems.
Anna Marina,
The uncertainty lies in the various calendaring systems and their tie-in to our own.
Even though the Babylonians and the Jews both numbered their months from Nisan, the Babylonian New Year began in Nisan while the Jewish New Year began in Tishri.
Since the Bible is not clear which calendar is the frame of reference for the events it describes, the April to October difference between the two introduces an element of uncertainty.
All of this has gone pretty far afield from the semantic logic of your video, which I agree with.
In the same vein, Jesus admonition to, "lift your heads up" when these events start to occur is rendered nonsensical by the idea that they started to occur 105+ years ago in 1914
[Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p. 481 - The book of Daniel states that it was in “the second year” of Nebuchadnezzar’s kingship (probably counting from the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. and therefore actually referring to his 20th regnal year) that Nebuchadnezzar had the dream about the golden-headed image.]
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003200?q=probably&p=par#h=9
So even though Daniel states it was in the 2nd year of Neb’s kingship, he ‘probably' meant Neb’s 20th year of kingship.
_______________________________________
[Jeremiah 52: 28 These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar* took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews.+ 29 In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar,*+ 832 people* were taken from Jerusalem. 30 In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar,* Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people.*+ In all, 4,600 people* were taken into exile.]
So when Neb took 3,023 Jews
in his 7th year he didn’t become ‘world ruler' yet but in his
18th when he took 832 he did. And in his 23rd year when 745 Jews
were taken he became 'super duper world ruler'.
johnamos
scholar, you speak on the discrepancy of 587/586 but you ignore the one with the WTS 607/606.
I have showed that the years the WTS has for Jehoiakim are 628 –618
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=%22628-618%22&p=par&r=occ
Based on that Neb's 18th year would be 606
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There is no comparison because there are two different scenarios: for the first, we are referring to a specific date for the Fall, we say it is 607 BCE, other say is either 586 or 587 BCE, secondly, we are talking about events- reigns of kings between years so that is why historians say eg. 607/606 BCE etc.
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The WTS say that in Oct 1914 is when Jesus became king and the first thing Jesus (Michael) did was throw Satan out of heaven to the earth which meant WOE for the earth. They say WW1 is evidence of that WOE. Here is the thing though, WW1 started in June/July of 1914.
WW1 began on July 28, 1914 after the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand occurred on June 28, 1914.
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Simple. There is nothing to suggest in Scripture that the beginning of the Great War had to immediately coincide with the beginning of the Gentile Times. The Gentile Times ended in October 1914 by historians do not hive a specific date for the when the Great War began as different nations joined the War effort not always when that first pistol shot was fired end of June 1914.
scholar JW
It seems this thread I started really struck a chord with someone.
It must have hit pretty close to the mark. To get someone so riled-up.
stavro
I think most people who attempt to interpret the scriptures start out using exegesis and end up with eisegesis. I may be wrong, but I’m not personally convinced there is one harmonious way of interpreting the scriptures, despite using rigorous exegesis. To my mind there seems to be too many places where the scriptures can be used to support more than one position. I find you end up using your own personal preferences in deciding upon which position you ultimately chose to side with.
A well informed and knowledgeable former brother by the name of Eric Wilson also advocates the importance of careful exegesis. Despite both yourself and Eric using the same methodology you guys still draw different conclusions on many important doctrines.
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Students who enter the ministry at a theological seminary learn the art of exegesis in interpreting a text and this consists basically of :
OBSERVATION
INTERPRETATION
CORRELATION
APPLICATION
These are the basic methods that one uses when searching the scriptures. Unfortunately most Witnesses are not skilled in this art and use similar but a different method when studying the Bible for even the word 'exegesis' is not found in WT publications.
Eric Wilson, who I have some familiarity no doubt practices exegesis in his published critique of WT theology and this fair enough for not everyone is going to reach the same conclusion as to the meaning of a text so this gives to a Church imposed eisegesis- and imposed text interpretation. Exegesis is a personal approach to Scripture and that is why Bible Commentaries abound.
Scholar in studying the principal texts relating to 607 BCE debate consults with all of the leading published commentaries as part of his research methodology
scholar JW
Hi TD, its nice to be able to chat freely. I'm not a great one for staying on topic. It can feel very restictive.
Yes the Bible is clear. Ziv is the 2nd months and there is no other kind of cross ref for it. The Bible sticks to this. It's only when so-called scholars wade in and try to moved things around by suggesting the months have a different order that uncertainty enters. Actually its not uncertainty it utter confusion. Such ones paved the way for Watchtower.
The Bible is easy to understand, it starts off really gently showing how time is counted with Adam up to Lamech. Gets tiny bit more complex with Noah and so it continues as if supporting you to improve your skill and keeping track of time. Minimal detail is use and the numbering cannot be viewed independent of the actual events/lives of men. Therefore comprehension of the history goes with monitioring the passage of time.
For example - regarding the 2nd month, Watchtower encourages us to view it as October (!!!!!). The Bible actually says the 2nd month is Ziv, spring time (April/May). Just imagaine you are getting a lot of animals off a boat, down a mountain and letting them loose, what would be the best time to do it? October (not a lot to eat) or a beautiful spring with lots of yummy green shoots pushing forth?
*** w03 5/15 pp. 4-5 Noah’s Log—Does It Have Meaning for Us? ***
Noah divided the year into 12 months of 30 days each. In ancient times, the first month started about the middle of our calendar month of September. The floodwaters began to fall in “the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month” and continued falling for 40 days and 40 nights during the months of November and December 2370 B.C.E.
(Genesis 7:11) . . .In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month. . .
(1 Kings 6:1) . . .And it came about in the four hundred and eightieth year after the sons of Israel came out from the land of Egypt, in the fourth year, in the month of Ziv, that is, the second month, after Sol′o‧mon became king over Israel, that he proceeded to build the house to Jehovah. . .
