Black Lives Matter—Do You Agree With Their Philosophy?

by minimus 246 Replies latest jw friends

  • Hisclarkness
    Hisclarkness

    Pete Zahut said:


    Did I deny your experience or the experiences of millions of people of color? If you read my post again you’ll see that all I did was relate my own experiences with injustices and unfairness as a white man. You decided that I was denying your experiences, all by your self.”

    If someone comes to you in grief and says that there mom just died, it would be insensitive to respond with, “so what! My mom died too and you don’t see me crying and grieving like you are!”

    In general you don’t respond to someone’s grievance by recounting your own. It’s called empathy. You might not have denied my experience but you effectively invalidated and deflected it.

    Peter Zahut said:

    Thats exactly what you’re doing when you call an entire race of people that you don’t even know, privileged « across the board regardless of their personal circumstances. Isn’t it the height of racism to paint an entire race of people with the same broad brush?”

    You are confusing racism with prejudice and bias. I believe the word privilege is throwing some people off here but if you read my explanation I don’t believe it is a hard concept to grasp. And I have acknowledged multiple times that bias exists in everyone regardless of race.

    Saying that IN GENERAL (which I believe I said) white people don’t have to deal with daily negative assumptions based on their race that can impact directly impact their ability to succeed economically is not a racist statement. It’s just a fact.

    If a white person says that black people have more melanin in their skin and therefore enjoy a bit (A BIT, lol) more tolerance towards sunburn, skin disease, and skin cancer, that is not a racist statement. You have stated a fact.
  • minimus
    minimus

    This thread is very diverse. Thanks for contributing!!!

  • Simon
    Simon
    white people don’t have to deal with daily negative assumptions based on their race that can impact directly impact their ability to succeed economically is not a racist statement. It’s just a fact.

    Why don't white people have to deal with negative assumptions about their race?

    Why do black people have a reputation for violence and looting?

    Is it "just a fact"?

  • redvip2000
    redvip2000
    White privilege has to do with implicit bias and how you are perceived by others. IN GENERAL (because of course there are always outlying examples) a white person can walk down the street without someone assuming they are a thug, or a criminal, or uneducated, or a danger or a threat.

    I've said this before I'll say it again. People profile others based on observation. Young black males account for about 50% of violent crime in America despite being a small percentage of the nation. Does that mean all black males are criminals? Of course not, but when people see the same type of folks in the news and media as responsible for large amount of crimes, this has an effect.

    And this is not really about race. A 70 year old black man does not invoke that fear, neither does a middle age black woman, nor a teenager black girl.

    This is not just the responsibility of the larger population to force their minds not to have this fear, though I would argue everyone needs to be given a chance to show what their worth. But the people being profiled also have some responsibility to help change stereotypes.

    When italians came to this country they were victims of persecution and stereotyping.They had a really tough time being accepted and being integrated. What happened? Did they protest and demand that society change their mind? Well, no. They simply began gaining the trust and admiration from others to the point where over the years they were fully accepted.

  • Simon
    Simon
    a white person can walk down the street without someone assuming they are a thug, or a criminal, or uneducated, or a danger or a threat.

    Blacks and whites can do exactly the same. How you are perceived has more to do with your dress, bearing and demeanour than your color.

    A black man in a suit is just as respected as a white man in a suit. A white guy dressed as a hells-angel is just as threatening as a shirtless black guy with his pants round his knees.

    But even if that were not the case. Who's fault is it? Humans are pattern matching machines. We based our lives off past experiences and things we've seen. If we see a gang of black youths and deem them a threat, who's fault is that?

    The answer lies in crime stats. It tells you everything you need to know about WHY there is bias, why people cross the street if there is a group of black kids, why people avoid going into black neighbourhoods and so on.

    Don't tell people they are racist for not wanting to be victims. Blame the people who do the victimizing that people like you defend and excuse rather than identify and condemn.

    Changing perceptions means changing behaviors.

    Guess who just set the optics of black people back 10-20 years? BLM and their BS protests.

  • Pete Zahut
    Pete Zahut

    If someone comes to you in grief and says that there mom just died, it would be insensitive to respond with, “so what! My mom died too and you don’t see me crying and grieving like you are!”

    You needn't explain to me what empathy is and your example of the deceased mother is full of holes because you're not comparing apples to apples.
    If you wanted to use the example of the death of a mother as an equal comparison, you'd have to say that your mother died and no one suffers the way a black person does when their mother dies. to which I would have responded with examples of how much I too suffered when my mom died.
    Instead you gave examples of things you had to put up with because of your race as if no one else could possibly have had those things happen except a black man. I responded with examples of my own that demonstrated that as a White Man, I too have experience with being treated unfairly. I didn't say "So What?" It's just that you didn't like hearing that so you concluded that I was discounting your experience and being unempathetic when in reality it's you who is discounting the possibility that a privileged white male could possibly have anything comparable to complain about when it come to being treated unfairly. It's easier to find fault with me than to consider the possibility that others may actually have a valid point.

    My parents brought me and my siblings to this country when I was small. My Dad worked his regular job and cleaned his office building and other medical offices at night and on the weekends. I as an 8 year old boy and all the way through high school (except for meeting nights) worked all night and on weekends with him and went to school the next day and struggled to stay awake and learn. My best JW friend was a black kid and we grew up together from 1st grade to 12 grade practically living at each others homes, we even went to Bethel together. His Elder father got a 0 interest minority loan to start his own business. They had every material advantage, drove fancy cars had new clothes and went on lots of expensive vacations. He and I were out in the door to door work one Saturday and there was a house that had lots of cat figurines in the yard and a sign on the door that said "No Dogs Allowed" My friend told me that the sign meant that they didn't want black people at their house. He was skeptical as I explained to him that these people were cat lovers and the sign was probably a joke or at the very least, meant to protect their cats. He wasn't convinced even when the people were very nice to us.
    One day during summer vacation his sister Ann was staying overnight with my sister. The nice kid across the street was in Band class at school with her (she played the Clarinet) and he called out , " Hi Annie...how's the Ol' Licorice Stick?" She burst into tears and ran into the house crying to my mother that the boy across the street is prejudice and called her a Licorice Stick because she's black. Later, the boy explained that in Band class, they call the Clarinet a Licorice Stick because it's straight and black and shiny like a licorice stick and he was just wondering how she was doing over the summer vacation. My friends parents were the warmest loveliest people but they kept a wall up, kept everyone at arms length only associated with black people from their old congregation and I heard them teach their kids in subtle ways, that white people were out to get them and not to be trusted.

    My parents were white of course and spoke their own language but English was their 1st language and they spoke it perfectly. They were both well educated. As soon as they opened their mouths to speak their European accent became evident. I heard people tell them off for coming to this country and taking their jobs away. I heard JW's say to my highly educated school teacher mother "For a foreigner, you sure do speak good American " ( not English well, but good American.) They were good dancers and they had black people comment that they dance real good...for white folks! As if all white people have no sense of rhythm and that was supposed to be a big compliment coming from them who considered their way of dancing to be the gold standard.


    We came to this country and were automatically included in the racial mess that was going on here for hundreds of years even though none of our ancestors had anything to do with it.
    There are millions of white people in the same situation but when (some) black people see us, and they automatically assume we are against them simply because of our skin color. I was in Charlotte N.C recently and a black woman at a fast food restaurant was courteous to the entire line of black people who were ahead of me. When I stepped up to the counter she wouldn't even look at me or ask me what I wanted. I could see what was happening so I went ahead and gave my order and she made no indication that she even heard me. When the food came she put the bag and my change on the counter out of my reach and I had to reach over into her work space and get it and pick each coin up off the metal counter one by one as she smirked.

    When I was in Bethel, I was riding on the subway home from meeting and stood up to give my seat to a weary looking older black woman. She said "Sit your white ass down Cracker !!"
    I'm a City Inspector and recently had to ask a black woman not to park in the employee parking lot. I said, excuse me Mam' you probably didn't realize it but this area is for City Vehicles. I need to ask you to move your car. In the most hateful contemptuous voice she said, "Don't be telin' me what to do WHITE MAN !"

    A middle aged black woman in my office was fired after a year of being warned not to be late and not to call in sick so often. Everyone loved her and hated to see her go but she just wouldn't change. On the day of the firing, she slammed out of the Directors office, shoved the phones and computer off his secretaries desk, smashed a printer to the floor and kicked over a plant stand. If a white woman did that, the cops would have been called and she'd have been fined for the damages. Instead, all the white people in charge felt bad for the poor underprivileged black lady and let it go. Later she sued for discrimination and fortunately, her supervisor had kept meticulous records and took photos of the damage she did. All the other black employees in the office knew she was in the wrong but wouldn't come to the Directors defense for fear of looking like traitors.
    I don't really know why I'm bothered to go into all that other than to show that everyone has a story to tell but when you indicate to me that I don't have empathy or say that I'm trying to deflect or invalidate your experience, I suggest that you consider the idea that when you're participating in a discussion on an open forum and when someone relates their own experience, they aren't necessarily trying to be unempathetic or undermine yours, they are simply participating in the discussion.
  • Simon
    Simon
    If I may interject, I think Jimmy Kimmel did a very good job of explaining this:

    No he didn't. That was BS, Kimmel is a moron (and racist? hasn't he done black-face multiple times?). His anecdote of the looters is a perfect description of why the bias exists - past experience.

    If we regularly saw gangs of white people on TV looting stores, and there were massively disproportionate numbers of white murderers, then there would be exactly the same suspicion and judgement of white people.

    The only privilege we may have has been EARNED. It's paying your taxes, mowing your lawn, obeying the law, being polite, recognizing the value of community and a million other small things that add up to earning trust which translates to the group and from the group to individuals. We see the value of social norms and obeying them, not acting like jerks and then wondering why society thinks we're jerks and wants to avoid us.

    If people don't have that, they should look at themselves and the people that they visibly identify themselves as. And that isn't necessarily race. I could dress and behave like some low-life and guess what - I'd be treated as one. I dress and act respectfully and am treated likewise.

  • Hisclarkness
    Hisclarkness

    Simon said:

    Don't tell people they are racist for not wanting to be victims. Blame the people who do the victimizing that people like you defend and excuse rather than identify and condemn.”

    I was very careful NOT to call anybody racist. In fact, I said that EVERYBODY has implicit bias and that we have to work together to eradicate unfounded biases. I also explicitly said that this is NOT about making white people fell guilty about being white or about something that happened in the past that no one can control.

    Simon, you always want to talk about statistics. I have so many statistics that I could cite but I have a feeling that I could flood this forum with statistics and that it really wouldn’t change anything that much because people want to believe what they want to believe.

    This is the problem. We keep talking past each other and no one is trying to listen to what the other has to say.

  • Hisclarkness
    Hisclarkness

    Pete Zahut,

    Im sorry for all of the negative experiences you’ve faced. You are correct. Those things should not have happened to you.

    I’ve said my peace on the issue. I don’t wish to argue with anyone online. I hope this discussion can continue on in productive ways.

  • Simon
    Simon
    Simon, you always want to talk about statistics. I have so many statistics that I could cite but I have a feeling that I could flood this forum with statistics and that it really wouldn’t change anything that much because people want to believe what they want to believe

    Go for it. Give it your best shot. I don't think you have stats on your side and that is an attempt to imply you do but without producing anything.

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