does honesty need to be harsh?

by Ravyn 210 Replies latest members adult

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Onacruse said:

    : ... I'm reminded of that scripture "Have you ever known a spring give sweet and bitter water simultaneously? Have you ever seen a fig tree with a crop of olives, or seen figs growing on a vine? It is just as impossible for a spring to give fresh and salt water at the same time."

    The problem with analogies like this is that they're false. Humans are not like springs of water, fig trees or grape vines. They're multi-faceted creatures, not one-dimensional inanimate objects or vegetables.

    : For example, let's take:

    : Problem is, [Craig], like certain other posters, you have an inferiority complex based on the demonstrated fact that you have virtually no debating skills. Knowledge of that lack causes you to lash out at other posters you know or think have some skills.

    : I would dearly like to know how a comment like that could be taken as anything other than derogatory, spiteful and demeaning.

    Of course a comment like that is as you describe, and if the comment is assumed to be out-of-the-blue and unjustified, your point would be well taken. The real point, though, is whether such a comment is justified. Let me make an example and see if you think your example represents the whole story.

    Suppose someone called PeaBrain continually makes derogatory comments about you, like this:

    Craig continually proclaims himself THE master debator of this board.
    Craig constantly proclaims his superiority to everone else, but is delusional.
    Craig thinks he's more than a man.
    Craig is an idiot.
    Craig has formed a cult around himself and people worship him.

    Suppose these derogatory and false statements appear month after month, and year after year. Would you be justified in getting pissed? I think so.

    If on a number of occasions you engaged the liar with comments like:

    Can you find a single instance where I have ever proclaimed anything like that?

    And if the poster never comes back with proof of the lies, would you not be justified in being pissed? Would you not be justified in setting the record straight?

    Just how long would you put up with someone continually lying about you?

    Furthermore, are not false statements such as the above, accompanied by staunch refusal to back them up, positive proof of someone who indeed has a serious inferiority complex, has no debating skills, and probably is seriously in need of psychological counseling?

    So when you're pushed to the limit by lies from PeaBrain, after ignoring them for some time, would you not be justified in saying:

    Peabrain, you have an inferiority complex based on the demonstrated fact that you have virtually no debating skills. Knowledge of that lack causes you to lash out at other posters you know or think have some skills.

    Given that the above example is based on actual statements by Prisca to me, do you still think your example represents the real situation? Is it fair?

    I have to say that it appears that you, like so many other posters to this and related threads, have simply not done your homework by reading over the complete threads, and so really have no business commenting. Take a lesson from Teejay.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Six, your understanding of the issues being raised here is dead on.

    This is not rocket science, people!

    AlanF

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Alan, Alan,

    It's not always completly about you.

    Although the truth of some of comments appears to be driving home with you. Learn from them. Are you above it?

    Your comments went fairly well until you slipped in this final caviat;

    **** Take a lesson from Teejay.****

    An uneeded, uncalled for, reminder to everyone reading, that it is unwise to challenge ALAN.

    It really is very sad Alan.

    Danny

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Onacruse,

    I'm reminded of that scripture "Have you ever known a spring give sweet and bitter water simultaneously? Have you ever seen a fig tree with a crop of olives, or seen figs growing on a vine? It is just as impossible for a spring to give fresh and salt water at the same time."

    Unless of course you are the son of God and 'harshly' refer to you enemies as, 'offspring of vipers', 'Whitewashed graves', 'Leaven'. Sometimes harsh words are required to *validate* honesty.

    HS

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Danny, you seem to have completely misunderstood my meaning about my comment, "Take a lesson from Teejay." So what else is new?

    What I meant is no more and no less than what Teejay himself posted: he went back and reread the threads he had misunderstood, understood them, seen the point I had been making all along, and changed his thinking. Then he was man enough to admit it. As I told him, my respect for him went up immensely.

    Danny, take a lesson from Teejay. And take your own advice.

    AlanF

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    I can see a song coming on...

    sorry I should be in that vincent thread

  • teejay
    teejay

    We're talking about the best way to help the biggest number of people. I just think it's funny to see someone who is wildly successful at doing that, criticised. -- SixofNine

    Six,

    I know you are a big fan of AlanF, but would it be too much trouble to substantiate the above claim by pointing us in the direction of some (any?) evidence that a single person has been helped by being called names on a discussion forum? I'd appreciate it.

  • teejay
    teejay

    >>> What I meant is no more and no less than what Teejay himself posted: he went back and reread the threads he had misunderstood, understood them, seen the point I had been making all along, and changed his thinking. -- AlanF (emphasis teejay's)

    With all due respect, Alan,

    I know you are basking in the glory of my apology--I've read your "take a lesson from Teejay" line at least twice, now--but to clarify matters... I misunderstood a single comment that you made in one single, solitary thread (singular) not threadS (plural).

    As far as your use of grade school insults, I'm fairly certain that you are wrong... the defense of you by others notwithstanding.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Well, as usual, you've all given me much to think about

    It was suggested to me some time back that as I evolve away from my JW-lifer mentality, I would change in ways I can't even imagine. And boy! has that ever proven true. In my self-estimation, all these changes have been nothing but positive and healthy.

    So, as I now try to honestly re-consider this issue of "harshness," I can't help but ask myself: "Craig, perhaps you're so (too?) diffident simply because you're still more or less acting according to your JW conditioning?" This is a very real possibility. Perhaps a year or two down the line I'll be unrecognizably more strident and confrontational than I am now. Who knows, I might eventually get as bad as AlanF

    However, where I am now is where I am; but I'll speak here a little more frankly than leaves me comfortable--

    AlanF:

    The problem with analogies like this is that they're false. Humans are not like springs of water, fig trees or grape vines. They're multi-faceted creatures, not one-dimensional inanimate objects or vegetables.

    Alan, you totally missed the point of that analogy. The point is that what people say and do is a reflection of what they are inside. If we make angry and demeaning comments, it's because we have angry and demeaning feelings. Is it healthy to have those feelings? Are there perhaps unresolved issues that need our first attention? Is it possible that by venting such spleen on a db we are simply side-stepping the challenge to move on to a healthier and more peaceful life? If we act like lambs instead of lions, are we afraid that somehow our "stature" is at risk?

    Just how long would you put up with someone continually lying about you?

    Those who know me, or who care to know me, will soon enough realize that those lies for what they are, and will disregard them. If someone doesn't care to know me, and chooses to believe those lies, then that's their business. Anything I say in self-defense would be dismissed anyway. And to reduce myself to the level of name-calling and judgmental categorization is just that: a reduction of myself. Just because I see a spade doesn't mean that I have to compulsively call it a spade; I can just walk away from the card table. Unless tangible harm was being done to me (e.g. someone accuses me of being a child abuser, and the cops show up at my door), I'd simply ignore each and every one of the accusations you listed.

    Given that the above example is based on actual statements by Prisca to me, do you still think your example represents the real situation? Is it fair?

    I've very little idea what's transpired between you and Prisca, and my posts on this topic are not intended as a commentary about whatever bad water has passed between you two. But, if Prisca says something derogatory about you, I dismiss it, because I know you for the kind and caring person that you are. If you say something derogatory about Prisca, I dismiss it, because I know Prisca for the kind and caring person that she appears to be in her posts here. I credit both of you for that good I see, and demerit neither of you for your "flaws;" and thereby I sleep peacefully at night.

    I have to say that it appears that you, like so many other posters to this and related threads, have simply not done your homework by reading over the complete threads, and so really have no business commenting.

    Really? I've read and re-read all the posts on this thread several times. Maybe I see them, or selectively comment about them, from a different perspective or with a different emphasis than you...and somehow I'm thereby disqualified from comment? Gimme a break.

    Six:

    We're talking about the best way to help the biggest number of people.

    Agreed. And so then answer me on my "90%+ have been helped by kindness." Do you think that's about the right percentage? Lower? If so, how do you know? From your personal experience? Perhaps a poll was done somewhere?

    HS:

    Unless of course you are the son of God and 'harshly' refer to you enemies as, 'offspring of vipers', 'Whitewashed graves', 'Leaven'. Sometimes harsh words are required to *validate* honesty.

    That scripture, and many others of a similar negative tone, make me now stand back and seriously question what, if any, of those writings are "inspired." Oh sure, visualizing Jesus taking on the Pharisees makes for wonderful fantasy, the face-off of good over evil. Perhaps nothing more than indulging in a psychological compensation for the typically menial life of the common man, where the hero stands in for the coward to take on the giant. I didn't quote James 3:11, 12 as if it has any intrinsic authority. What Jesus supposedly said to the Pharisees also has no instrinsic authority, and doesn't prove that harshness is needed to validate honesty.

    Respects to all,

    Craig

  • teejay
    teejay

    >>> Unless of course you are the son of God and 'harshly' refer to you enemies as, 'offspring of vipers', 'Whitewashed graves', 'Leaven'. Sometimes harsh words are required to *validate* honesty.

    Either the bible is true / inspired or it's not. If it's true, then we have to accept, not just what Jesus said (quoted above by hillary_step) but also who the bible said Jesus was.

    Possibility Number One: the bible is true and Jesus was in fact who it said he was. Depending on your religious persuasion, that would make one Jesus of Nazareth either the inspired Son of God, bequeathed with extraordinary human power and divine insight into all things human, or god himself. Such a person would be far different than any other human who ever lived. Different even (I'm sad to say, Six) than AlanF.

    This would, of necessity, mean that just because Jesus found a method of public discourse effective doesn’t mean that we are anywhere near qualified to do the same. Being able to cite an example of him doing ANYTHING would not necessarily justify our doing the same thing, or even something similar, in similar circumstances.

    Possibility Number Two: the bible isn't true (or wholly true). This would cast a serious shadow over much of what it says, including not only what Jesus said (or didn't say) but also who the bible says he was. If the bible isn't true, then would using the suspect words of a suspect "messiah" be validation enough for us to copy any act he supposedly made?

    As any reasonable person should by now see, whether the bible is true or not, citing Jesus as justification for using harsh language just doesn't fly.

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