tommy Robinson --update (page 6)

Abaddon

Oh come off it Simon. People like me "are the reason cases like Rotheram and so many others happen and will continue to happen"?

And "Take your "Muslim pedophile rape gang apologism" and fuck off elsewhere because I'm sick of idiots like you obsessing about "OMG, some white guy said a Muslim was bad!!!" and who is pointing to the issue than the crimes and the people who commit them."??

Behave.

Me: "Those children suffered because of evil predatory men, shitty parents, and a system which classified working class delinquent children as not being worth protecting. That is why it went on for years".

Please show me what is factually wrong with that statement or how that amounts to apologism.

This goes far beyond issues with as Andrew puts it a “… particular issue with small sub-section of men within the South Asian Community, predominantly Pakistani Muslim heritage”.

The simple fact is that if this happened to a girl called Jocelyn on the way home from pony club, the police would have arrested someone the same day, no matter what race they were.

Where is your outrage about that?

Why is looking at the mirror of our society and seeing it is lacking so hard? It doesn't detract from the issue with a non-representative portion of the Muslim community.

freddo

"Those children suffered because of evil predatory men, shitty parents, and a system which classified working class delinquent children as not being worth protecting. That is why it went on for years".

This.

Simon

Please show me what is factually wrong with that statement or how that amounts to apologism.

Because it's unnecessarily general - you want to just say "men" did it, of course it's factually accurate but then we could say "humans" couldn't we? I mean, isn't that even more politically correct?

The fact is that Muslim Pakistani Men did it and the culture and the local authorities response to it based on their cultural background was a significant factor in the crimes 1. happening, 2. going on for so long and 3. a lack of prosecutions.

The simple fact is that if this happened to a girl called Jocelyn on the way home from pony club, the police would have arrested someone the same day, no matter what race they were.

Where is your outrage about that?

Outrage about a hypothetical? That's your argument? You make something up and then berate people for not being angry about something that didn't happen?

I want the police to investigate and prosecute ALL crimes regardless of who commits them and who the victims are but "Jocelyn" form the pony club probably has lots of people to advocate for her. The children in care do not. They need people like Tommy Robinson to point a finger and shout "WTF!"

Because if they don't, people like you will claim there's no need to act. Hey, it's just "men", generalized, and we shouldn't focus on the areas that are the biggest concentration of the problem.

There's an opportunity and attention cost to policing - you only have so much resource and it's important to focus on the areas that have the biggest problem. Right now, with child rape gangs, that is Muslim Pakistani men and, for reasons I cannot fathom, those that feel the need to defend the indefensible.

Where is your outrage? Why is it so misplaced?

Simon

a system which classified working class delinquent children as not being worth protecting

That's overly simplistic. It's more nuanced than that. If this had been white men committing the crimes people would have had no trouble acting and it wouldn't have required such intense effort to make it a story in the press and to get action.

The issue was the intersectionality badge that the muslim minority got which gave them a pass. It happened because they were Muslim and have no respect for Kafir and continued to happen because they were Muslim and the councils concerned had too much respect for them.

humbled

For me the sum of it all was to assess what was going on after the law was followed. After the children were protected.

The earliest threads absolutely cited the callous disregard for the girls. The reports that were ignored. IGNORED.

Law must be made and followed, enforced.

The problems that are peculiar to these times are well covered in Trevor Philips’ essays and comments on assimilation. There is the need to frankly discuss the peculiar range of issues to do with Islam. This open discussion in public forums aside from the mosques is welcomed by that worried percentage of progressive Muslims who cannot easily leave their religion

Abaddon

So, when asked to point to factual errors or apologism Simon, you just say

”Because it's unnecessarily general - you want to just say "men" did it, of course it's factually accurate but then we could say "humans" couldn't we? I mean, isn't that even more politically correct?”

As I specifically refer to the community the men in these cases typically draw from you claim of me being general is false, and you obviously cannot point to any factual error or apologism or you would.

And you’re wrong. If the girls had been girls the police and social services valued, action would have been taken sooner.

And don’t insert Tommy into this. He didn’t break the investigation. Where does he point out the classism? The sexism? He’s not concerned with that. He’s concerned with whipping up xenophobia.

And white men do this and get away with it if the parents fail to protect, and the police and social services regard the victim as ‘that sort of girl’. And I don’t just mean Bill Wyman.

Your obsession with a minority of 1.8% of the population means you don’t focus on needed change that demogogs like Tommy ignore that would protect at risk children from all predators. As anyone with the vaguest idea about statistics can figure out more girls are at risk due to systemic failures than the gangs like in Rotherham.

I’m not defending the indefensible. Don’t distort what I’m saying. If your argument had enough merit you would not need to,

Simon

Your obsession with a minority of 1.8% of the population ...

... a tiny minority that commits a massive proportion of these crimes.

But you don't see a problem with that. Just the people who push for change to stop it and to shine a spotlight where it damn well needs to be shone.

Abaddon

Again Simon, I’ve specifically mentioned the groups most offenders draw from. Again you falsely characterise me as not seeing a problem with that. Is your argument so weak that doing that is neccesary?

Why is the fact that classism and sexism in social services and police led to the suffering of children carrying on longer than it needed to something you find it hard to unequivocally admit? Why do you resist that spotlight being shone?

Because redressing systemic failings like that will protect far more children than imprisoning all Pakistan Muslim sexual predators - which should happen anyway.

resolute Bandicoot

Abaddon, are you a muslim?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydPZRoLzu-E&t=337s

Abaddon

Why are you posting prejudiced shit resolute Bandicoot? And what if I were a Muslim?

I've no interest in listening to a bigot on YouTube blow off with error after error in his monolog, but quite happy to have a dialog with you if you use your own words to express what you think.

I find it absolutely hysterical when non-believers take 'holy books' more seriously than the majority of the believers do, as most believers, whether they are Christian or Muslim only take what is convenient to them.

Look at how the expression of Christianity has changed in two hundred years - not because of any revelation from god, but because secularism and pragmatism has rubbed off the awkward bits and allowed people to ignore large parts of the Bible.

Islam is at the beginning of this process in many countries. Outside of the febrile imaginations of those pushing divisive ideologies, many Muslims in the West are well down this road.

The fact is culture expresses religion; religion does not express culture. This is how nasty, sexist, violent, racist Christian countries changed to far more peaceful and egalitarian ones. The culture changed, and people reinterpreted the religion accordingly (and became more and more nominal believers if not outright atheists). Our great great great grandfathers would consider the education of women nonsense, wife beating and marital rape a man's right, that an unchaperoned woman was a whore, that a woman showing her hair in public was likewise a whore, that it was right to impose religion with violence, that slavery was ok, that invading countries for trade or resources or just for land was totally permissible, that god created the world in seven days...

The culture in parts of some Muslim countries is basically unchanged from the time of WWII (and in many cases that means it closely resembled the culture in the country two hundred years ago, thus my comparison with great great great grandfathers), in others it has progressed. Immigrants carry cultural values with them, their children possess a blend, their grandchildren begin to resemble the 'norm' for that country. This has happened with almost every immigrant group in the past.

It will happen with Muslims because they are people just like us. The vast majority of the Muslims I have lived, worked and studied with are no more a risk to society than the average nominal member of the C of E, so it is happening, has happened.

tommy Robinson --update

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