questions for SwordOfJah and others like him
Shamus/Bri. You come across as a silly person to me, who can do nothing other than result to childish ridicule in his posts along with name calling, and then stand back and wait for the few others that will clap you on the back for your "oh so smart responses". Is this, and are you really the future of this forum? Lordy Lordy.
But what can we do? stone the writer to death?
SOJ, while I truly respect your opinions, this statement kind of made me cringe because I have a suspicion that you wouldn't have any problem with the thought of stoning me, an evil, fornicating, smoking apostate, to death, whereas you'd think it was fine to let a writer, whose words are read by millions, who has the ability to manipulate the minds, hearts and lives of these trusting people with his words, off the hook. Just think of some of the statements which have appeared in the WT over the years which have dictated the lives of honest hearted ones to their detriment. (Gang: HELP ME OUT HERE, PLEASE. I need examples and I can't think of a one... damned this stupid "illness I have...I just want it to go away.)
I not very eloquent; sorry. I'm no match for any one on this list as far as intelligence and the ability to debate articulately. I haven't even read the entire thread. But I did feel this line was very tellling. Do you really feel that those of us here deserve less mercy than the writers of the WT who have, in some cases, ruined lives with their unscriptural admonitions, such as shunning family members and the prohibition against blood? Maybe I'm over reacting; I'm very guilt of that. This just cut me to the heart. (And don't say it's supposed to, to shock me to my senses. Tough love does not cut it with me.)
Let me see if I understand you correctly. The Jehovah's Witnesses can make all kinds of mistakes as long as they continue to preach God's Kingdom. Now, if that is your major premis, how does that make them different than any other Christian Church?
You consider the teaching by Rutherford regarding the "ancient worthies" and Beth Sarim to be of minor consequence. I should think that it would have been of major consequence for the faithful who lived at that time. Picture yourself, living at that time, and I don't think you would have thought of it as a minor doctrine.
You said, "I guess some publications" gave an implication. Have you ever read those publications? I have, and they were very explicite about the details of the crazy doctrine, before and after 1925.
I think borgfree, gave a very graphic and heartfealt discription of what it was like back then.
I could go on and give you more detail, but I am tired of writing about the subject at this time.
I am sorry that I hit a nerve. I guess that I am a loser. From now on I'll try to be more like you - preach to apostates.
not every single word out of the prophet's mouth was inspired. Certain messages were
I'm sorry, are you saying that the Society has prophets, but that they are not inspired? Either they are or aren't. Or are you just saying that you have to take your chances; that you follow their teachings even though they might prove to be false in the future. Oh! Also, which of their inspired words were right (those that are unique to JWism)?
The Insight book said that prophets: were spokesmen for God, ‘men of God’ with inspired messages .
So you admit that the Society claims to be prophets, correct? And that they above quote says that a prophet speaks messages inspired by God correct? Well, if this is the case, then their inspiration should be correct, right? God surely would continously inspire his spokesmen improperly would he? Ins't the truth the best way to inspire someone?
Hey Butter Knife of Jah.. you talk about stoning the writer to death?
Well, let us establish precedence that the Watchtower Society proclaims that it is God's sole organization on earth and that it is under theocratic direction where God himself communicates via the Watchtower magazine.
*** You Can live Forever (1982, 1990) p.255 ***
Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization--God's visible organization -- that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation. " It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal . . . . You must be part of Jehovah's organization , doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life...
*** Watchtower 1964 May 1 p.277-8 Building a Firm Foundation in Christ ***
8 God's Word is the basis of our faith. As we pore over its pages our mind is communing with God's. Our faith is established and strengthened. We are "always ready to make a defense" by offering "a reason for the hope" that we hold, and we are thereby equipped to teach others the way of life. (1 Pet. 3:15; 2 Tim. 2:2) Why, though, is such emphasis placed on "accurate" knowledge? Why should such care be exercised in our study of the columns of The Watchtower , and of our application of the Scripture texts to the material under consideration? It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant Scriptural counsel to his people, and it requires careful study and attention to details in order to apply this information, to get a full understanding of the principles involved, and to assure ourselves of right thinking on these matters. It is in this way that we "are thoroughly able to grasp mentally with all the holy ones" the fullness of our commission and of the preaching responsibility that Jehovah has placed on all Christians as footstep followers of his Son. Any other course would produce independent thinking and cause division. "Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought." (1 Cor. 1:10) If all who are associated in the Christian organization have the mind of God and of Christ there will be unity and all will be built up in maturity of understanding.
and of course one of my personal favorites:
*** Watchtower 1959 January 15 pp.39-41 Down with the Old-Up with the New! ***
... but, Who will be Jehovah's prophet to the nations , to speak to them everything that He should command? Who will be the modern Jeremiah? ... So who will prophesy with his message in this time of the end of the nations of this world? ... How was the question answered? ... The fact that decides the answer to the question is, not, Do all the clergy of Roman Catholicism and of Protestantism agree that Jehovah's witnesses have been and are God's prophet to the nations? but, Who discerned the divine will for Christians in this time of the world's end and offered themselves to do it? Who have undertaken God's foreordained work for this day of judgment of the nations? Who have answered the call to the work and have done it down till this year 1958? Whom has God actually used as his prophet?
14 By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah's witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. ... It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths...
So according to your own religion's literature, God speaks to mankind directly through the Watchtower magazine and the JW organization. Now let us have a look at the bloodlust your cult possesses even within the last half a century. Now that we have established precedence, JW's would LOVE to be ABLE to STONE PEOPLE TO DEATH.
*** Nov 15, 1952 Watchtower ***
Questions from Readers
· In the case of where a father or mother or son or daughter is disfellowshiped, how should such person be treated by members of the family in their family relationship?-P. C., Ontario, Canada.
We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. "Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee."-Deut. 13:6-11, AS.
Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws . The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship . However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof.
They WISH THEY COULD STONE YOU TO DEATH.
Choke on that ButterKnife of Jah.
Your excuse? I am sure it is forthcoming.
Regarding the question 5:
*** Watchtower 1989 January 1 p.12 "The Hand of Jehovah Was With Them" ***
[Note: not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]
[as originally published in Watchtower magazine]
The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century.
*** Watchtower 1989 January 1 p.12 "The Hand of Jehovah Was With Them" ***
[as it appears on Watchtower bound volumes & CD-ROMs]
The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our day.
Does the bound volume or CDROM contain any indication that this was changed/edited/corrected?
Also, were there any changes in doctrine that would explain this change, or was it perhaps an actual typo?
I'm loathe to agree with Francois, but he quotes the WT as saying:
Jehovah's witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them. ... It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths...
Combine that statement with the change in understanding about the generation (and the corresponding change in the masthead of Awake!) and that is what has shattered my confidence in "Jehovah's organization."
SwordofJah, how do you personally reconcile the two?
Again, just want to say while I truly respect your opinions, please keep in mind that many of us here have been very hurt by the WTS. Some of us do still believe in Jehovah, and are honestly confused. In my case, I am so depressed and stunned by what I've found out about the WTS that I am literally sickened; as I said in my first post here, I feel shocked and violated. For myself, I am still actively seeking the right way to worship the true God. I just can't see how Jehovah could whole heartedly support an organization guilty of such atrocities.
I may be as good as dead to you and other "good" Witnesses, but at this point in time, I just can't believe that a God of love will destroy me because an organization I believed in betrayed my trust in the worst possible way. As for what I am doing at this point in my life that is unscriptural, Jehovah most certainly knows that I am trying to rectify the situation. My fate I will leave in his hands. But it is not your place, or that of any other Witness, to judge me.
For myself, I just can't see where I am a worse person for being in a committed relationship without the benefit of a marriage license, than those who continue to mislead and abuse so many spiritually. You can say I'm blinded, and will die for believing the original lie ("You will not die"). And that's your comfort for persons like me who have been treated heartlessly by "God's" organization. In what way, shape or form is that loving???? I get to be thrown to Satan's wolves, but you honestly believe that the WTS, with its hands full of the blood of honest hearted ones, deserves your support and (obvious) affection?
I'm not making sense. Sorry. You hit a raw nerve with that one. But it is not you who has "shocked me to my senses". It was reading all the truth about the organization on this site as well as others that has shocked me to my senses...about whether or not God truly supports the WTS.
SHAMUS: I think you should meditate on what awaits you and not what will happen with me. Each one will answer to Jehovah of Armies at the end.
Ooohhhhh scary !!! Jehovah, God of love, is going to destroy us all because we don't listen to a group of tired old pervs running our sex lives !!! Sword of Jah, you really are like one of those nodding dogs you see in the back of a car. Take your head out your ass and admit the Governing Body is full of shit, shit and more shit.
And more fool you for believing otherwise.