What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy 103 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Skepsis

    I will be passing the emblems, I hope for the last time in my life.

  • Nathan Natas
  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas


  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas


  • steve2

    "When I said, 'Keep doing this in remembrance of me', I had no idea that 2,000 years later, a tiny group of people - who claim to follow me in accord with Biblical Christians - would be told by their leaders to refrain from 'doing this'; that is, don't eat the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of me.

    "Sheesh! How much clearer do I have to be?! I said 'keep doing this, for Christ's sake!'. I give up."

  • djeggnog

    While your calendar that you printed here is somewhat correct, Passover is observed on Nisan 15, not on the 14th. It is an 8 day festival, beginning with a Seder that begins at sundown on the 14/15th and merges with the 7-day Festival of Unleavened Bread on the 15th.

    While we both seem to be in agreement that the seven-day Festival of Unleavened Bread begins "on the 15th," what you seem to be unclear on is the "when" of the seder was eaten, which you suggest "begins at sundown on the 14/15th" and then "merges" with this sabbath. I sought to construct in one of my previous posts the relevant portion of the Hebrew calendar for the two weeks in April over which this sabbath spanned. It is admittedly confusing that I shaded the 22nd day, which should have been left unshaded as were the 9th and 10th days of this month, since this historic "8 day festival" began on the 14th day and ended on a high day, the seventh day of the sabbath, which is the 21st day. I will repost this graphic with an unshaded Nisan 22.

    Now if as you suggest the seder was eaten "at sundown on the 14/15th" of Nisan, wouldn't this not only have spanned seven days in view of the fact that an "8-day festival" that ended on Thursday/Friday Nisan 20/21 would have had to have begun eight days earlier at sundown on Thursday/Friday Nisan 13/14? I could ask you instead, if you were to count backward from the Thursday/Friday when the eight-day period ended, would you not then arrive at the Thursday/Friday of the previous week when this eight-day period began? Since Nisan 15 begins at sundown, Nisan 21 would be short a day, just SEVEN days, would it not? Would you not then be altogether OMITTING the very day on which the seder was really eaten back in 2248 AM on the Hebrew calendar (in 1513 BC on the Julian or Gregorian calendar), to wit, the fourteenth day of Nisan?

    I've decided to get into the thick of this a bit since what I'm about to say may not be as beneficial to you as it would be to those here that do believe the Bible to be God's word.

    Regarding the lamb or goat that was to be eaten during the month of Nisan as a part of the Passover meal, God commanded that "on the tenth day of this month they are to take for themselves each one a sheep for the ancestral house, a sheep to a house. The sheep should prove to be sound, a male, a year old, for you. You may pick from the young rams or from the goats. And it must continue under safeguard by you until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings. And they must eat the flesh on this night. They should eat it roasted with fire and with unfermented cakes along with bitter greens." (Exo. 12:3, 5, 6, 8)

    I am aware that Jewish tradition interprets "between the two evenings" at Exo. 12:6 to mean that the passover lamb was to be slaughtered from noon time until sundown, so that the passover meal itself would be eaten on Nisan 15, even as you have stated in your post, but the passover meal was not eaten on Nisan 15, for were this the case, then this would then suggest that Moses did not lead the Hebrew people out of Egypt until some six hours after Nisan 14 had already ended. However, the Bible indicates that it was not "at midnight" on Nisan 15 that "the destroyer" passed over the homes of those having the blood of a lamb or a goat splashed upon their doorposts and on the upper part of their doorways, but that it was "on this night"—that is, on Nisan 14—that the Hebrew people were instructed to eat the flesh "with unfermented cakes along with bitter greens," which historically, according to Scripture, they did, in fact, do! (Exo. 12:8, 29; Heb. 11:28)

    Actually, the slaughtering of the lambs or goats "between the two evenings" means that the Hebrews killed these animals between sundown and dusk on "the fourteenth day of this month," that is, they did this when the afterglow of the sun gives way to darkness before the twilight that occurs after sunset. However, "between the two evenings" should not be confused with the sunset-to-sunset or evening-to-evening (12:00 am-12:00 am) reckoning of the 24-hour day, for as Deut. 16:6 makes clear, the passover victim that was slaughtered on Nisan 14 was sacrificed "between the two evenings," that is, "in the evening as soon as the sun sets, at the appointed time of your coming out of Egypt."

    In fact, on the day after the passover, God commanded the Hebrews to observe the Festival of Unleavened Bread, where on the first day—Nisan 15—was to be a holy convention as well as the seventh day—Nisan 21—was to be a holy convention as well:

    "'Seven days you are to eat unfermented cakes.... And on the first day there is to take place for you a holy convention, and on the seventh day a holy convention. 'And you must keep the festival of unfermented cakes, because on this very day I must bring your armies out from the land of Egypt.... In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.'" (Exo. 12:15-18)

    So the Hebrews were commanded to eat unfermented cakes "in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month" for eight consecutive days, from Nisan 14 to Nisan 21, from the evening of "the fourteenth day of the month [of Nisan] ... down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening."

    First, the Jehovah's Witnesses are following a lunar calendar that they made up, not the same used by the Jews which uses the astronomical New Moon (and not a visible one) to determine the beginning of a month. There is no Sanhedrin in Jerusalem to determine when a visible New Moon begins (which was an unreliable, impractical, and if it occurs during a cloudy night, imprecise manner to determine a month's start). The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has taken it upon themselves to act as the Jerusalem Sanhedrin and pretend they are watching Jerusalem's sky (which they are not). You cannot determine in advance when a New and Full Moon should be discerned from Jerusalem if it has not happened yet.

    There's so much I could unpack here [how exactlydoes one 'make up' a lunar calendar?], but I'll just say that there was no Sanhedrin when the exodus occurred. Not just the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, but all Jehovah's Witnesses recognize Nisan as being the first month on the sacred calendar, the seventh month on the secular calendar. Despite the supposed imprecision, the ancient method on which Nisan 1 was determined was based on when the new moon nearest the spring equinox could likely be observed at sunset in Jerusalem. This means that were you to count 14 days from this calendaring "event," you would land one on Nisan 14, which usually corresponds to the day of the full moon. I fail to see how "a cloudy night" could have any effect on the appearance of a celestial object, but I'll stop here.

    Next, and most important, we are talking about the merging of two feasts. Literalist Christians, like the JWs, refuse to acknowledge both Jewish tradition and secular history that shows that Passover predated the Exodus. It merged with the 7 day festival in observance of the Exodus from Egypt to create the holiday you see today.

    "Most Important"? It's not true that Jehovah's Witnesses "refuse to acknowledge both Jewish tradition and secular history." To the contrary, Jehovah's Witnesses reject any tradition or ahistorical conclusion that renders God's word invalid. (Matt. 15:6)

    As I write this it is Nisan 14, the day of preparation. After sundown we (already) mark(ed) the day by searching for the last of the chometz (leaven) by candlelight. We then observe the Passover with a Seder the following evening on the 15th of Nisan.

    This year the 10th of [April] after sundown marks Nisan 15. Tuesday, when the Jehovah's Witnesses hold the Memorial will be Nisan 16.

    Actually, as shown in the calendar I posted, Monday, April 10, 2017, corresponds to Nisan 13, 3793 AM (33 AD Julian/Gregorian), and, in another calendar I'm posting, corresponds to Nisan 13, 2248 AM (1513 BC Julian/Gregorian). This would mean that Tuesday, April 11, 2017, would correspond to Nisan 14, 3793 AM, Nisan 14, 2248 AM. You would need to skip a couple of days to arrive at Nisan 16 as you imagine to be the date upon which the Memorial will be observed this year.

    Jehovah's Witnesses know very little about what they are doing. Remember, this religion was started by white, Gentile men in America at a time when anti-Semitism was an earmark of Christianity. Jewish "notions" were once rejected by all Christians until the Holocaust, so JWs felt it was their Christian right and duty to "restore" the Jewish calendar as they saw fit.

    After the Holocaust, Christianity in general recognized that its own shortsightedness and bigotry contributed indirectly and sometimes directly to the Nazi's genocide of the Jews. Thus afterwards Christian scholars accepted Jewish academia as authentic and authoritative.

    This, however, never changed groups like the Witnesses. To this day they even claim themselves as the main target of the Holocaust. So while they observe their Memorial, claiming it is Nisan 14 like a bunch of April-fool idiots, it will actually be the second night of the Passover holiday, Nisan 16, on the Jewish calendar. We call the entire feast Pesach or Passover now.

    You seem to have gone off-topic here in your remarks, for I have no idea why it is you would mention the Holocaust or the Nazis, or why it is you decided to include anti-semitism as having been at any time "an earmark of Christianity," when, to paraphrase the Lord Jesus Christ, 'mankind's salvation actually originated with the Jews' (John 4:22) [how on earth can Jesus' statement be arguably anti-semitic?], but while you are free to do so, I don't personally and neither do Jehovah's Witnesses recognize "Christianity in general" and their many "Christian scholars" to be genuine followers of Jesus Christ, and this is certainly the case for those to whom you refer to here as "Jewish academia."

    Jehovah's Witnesses are neither anti-semites nor bigots; they are Christians, who are appreciative that their slates were wiped clean when Jesus gave his perfect human life in sacrifice as a ransom for our sake, who forever lost two days of his life as many of those for whom he died continued living until his resurrection on the third day. Now Jesus will never get those two days back, but many of those living today may never have to experience death at all! (John 11:26)

    By the way, this means that Passover ends the evening of Tuesday, the 18th of April. I am not sure what your calendar is marking after that date.

    Ok. 😊


  • stuckinarut2

    From memory, wasn't it true that last year the society was a MONTH incorrect for the date of the memorial??

  • djeggnog
  • djeggnog
  • djeggnog

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