Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

by fulltimestudent 112 Replies latest jw friends

  • frozen2018

    LOL! I don't know how you read this as making it Trump's fault! I pointed out that Biden didn't withdraw from Afghanistan in secret. The intention has been known for a long time. Anybody who claims they didn't know simply were not paying attention.

  • Simon

    They did withdraw in secret. If they plan was to withdraw on Sept 11 and they slunk away in the night leaving people who depended on them, then it was in secret and it was disorganized.

    No one with a half-functioning brain can describe what has gone on as a "good plan" or any kind of plan at all. It's a debacle and you ARE attempting to paint it as no big deal and something Trump planned, which is a complete and utter lie.

    No more fake news please.

  • frozen2018

    I don't know who has called what is happening in Afghanistan a good plan (was there ever a good plan in Afghanistan?) and I have not attempted to paint current events as "no big deal." It is a disgrace! And most of what has happened in Afghanistan during the last 20 years has been a disgrace starting with the incompetent George W. Bush decision that allowed a doomed Osama bin Laden to escape Tora Bora and make his way to Pakistan.

    A couple months ago while speaking in Ohio, Donald J. Trump referred to crime in Chicago as being worse than Afghanistan and said, "where, by the way, I started the process, all the troops are coming home, they couldn't stop the process. Twenty one years is enough! Don't we think? They couldn't stop the process...they wanted to...very tough to stop the process." What, pray tell, is this "process" Donald J. Trump claims to have started and why couldn't "they" stop it? Lest is be dismissed as fake news, listen for yourself starting at 1:19:00.

  • fulltimestudent

    A poster claimed - "Diverging a little now, but the matter of WWII has been raised by other, so a few comments about that are appropriate. The fact is, during the early stages of the war against Japan, none of the Western allies fought particularly well. (Jungle warfare was something that had previously been hardly thought of, and only the Japanese were in any way prepared for it). The debacle at the British "fortress" of Singapore is well known, and the ease with which the Japanese over ran all European territories in South East Asia quickly led to them gaining the reputation of being supermen."

    Generally true, but in connection with the highlighted claim, there was one notable exception, and that was the British colony of Burma. Wingate's* campaign held the Japanese Army back, and likely saved India. The other area where the Japanese were held was China. The ROK army, despite many weaknesses and failures, did slow the Japanese advance.

    The Western Alliance, can be said to have failed to learn the lessons of history, In the 1904-5 Russo-Japanese war, the Japanese Navy destroyed two Russian fleets, the second one by simply lying in wait and ambushing the Russian fleet, a tactic they also used in the Pearl Harbour attack. But, interestingly, its's arguable that the Japanese had seen the French use the "surprise attack' that began (in a way) the Sino-French 'war' in the 1880's.

    The newly purchased southern fleet of Imperial China's navy was at anchor off Mawei (near Fuzhou). A French fleet sailed into the same harbour and anchored (as they had the right to do, according to the terms of various treaty's the Chinese had been forced to sign). At an agreed signal, the French fleet opened fire on the Chinese fleet, sinking 9 ships within an hour. No doubt, the Japanese government learned the lesson of that attack. i.e. that It's OK to make surprise attacks without first declaring war.

    *Major General Orde Charles Wingate, DSO & Two Bars (26 February 1903 – 24 March 1944) was a senior British Army officer known for his creation of the Chindit deep-penetration missions in Japanese-held territory during the Burma Campaign of the Second World War.

    Wingate was an exponent of unconventional military thinking and the value of surprise tactics. Assigned to Mandatory Palestine, he became a supporter of Zionism, and set up a joint British-Jewish counter-insurgency unit. Under the patronage of the area commander Archibald Wavell, Wingate was given increasing latitude to put his ideas into practice during the Second World War. He created units in Abyssinia and Burma. - Wikipedia

  • Rivergang


    After WWII, one of Wingate's lieutenants, Michael Calvert, wrote a book (Prisoners of Hope), which described in detail the second (i.e. 1944) Chindit expedition into Burma. In this, he mentioned a captured Japanese document, containing an appreciation of the fighting qualities of their enemies.

    In this, the Japanese listed as most effective the Chinese, second most effective the Australians, third most effective were the Americans, followed by the British, then the Gurkhas, and finally at last place the Indians. At least during the earlier phases of the war against Japan, it was Chinese forces who offered the most successful resistance against Japanese invasion.

    Wingate arrived in Burma far too late to be able to influence events in 1941 - 42, and the British were bundled out of that colony with almost the same ease as they were defeated in Malaya and Singapore. A major - perhaps the major - achievement of his first (i.e. 1943) Chindit expedition was to demonstrate beyond any doubt that European soldiers could fight in the jungle just as well as anybody else could. (It also disrupted the Japanese plans for Burma for that year).

    According to the Japanese themselves, the following year's Chindit expedition into Burma saved India from conquest. When debriefed after the war, the Japanese commander in chief for South East Asia admitted that he had had to commit one entire infantry division, plus a large part of another, just to pursue the Chindit forces who were harassing his rear areas. In his estimation, any one of those formations would have been sufficient to "swing the balance" at the two critical battles (Kohima and Imphal) then being fought at the gateway to India.

    Wingate was a controversial character, variously described as "brilliant", "eccentric" and even straight out "mad". To a degree this is understandable - it was a time that called for thinking "outside of the box", and in the process, the army establishment was shown up as wanting.

    Calvert's 1952 work Prisoners of Hope is an informative read about those times and events.

  • fulltimestudent


    Thnx mate for that interesting detail concerning the Chindit exploits in Burma.

    Also, fascinating to me was the reference to a captured Japanese document that referred to the Republic of China as being the most effective fighters they had to deal with. You may be interested in the negotiations that Lt.General Stillwell, whom Roosevelt had appointed to be in charge of the Allied war in East Asia, had with the British to gain their consent for a Chinese army to fight in negotiations. You can find that in Barbara Tuchman's book, Stillwell and the American Experience in China. 1911-1945 .

  • Rivergang


    I must indeed get hold of a copy of Barbara Tuchman's book.

    In Prisoners of Hope, Michael Calvert made frequent mention of Joseph Stilwell. During the final phases of their 1944 campaign, the Chindits were actually placed under the command of Stilwell (or "Vinegar Joe", as he was commonly known as). It made for a rocky relationship - Stilwell as a renown Anglophobe, always concerned that the "Limeys" were going to "run away". However, Calvert's overall impression of Stilwell was that he was highly professional in his conduct, and that personal feelings did not influence in any way his judgement. (Stilwell also appreciated straight, honest language, which he certainly received from Calvert!).

    The British 14th Army referred to themselves as "The Forgotten Army", and it would seem that the Burma - China theatre of operations is one of the lesser known stories of WWII.

  • fulltimestudent

    1. Edit note: Too much of a hurry this afternoon! And can no longer edit, so please note that the line, "the British to gain their consent for a Chinese army to fight in negotiations."

    Should read. "the British to gain their consent for a Chinese army to fight in Burma."

    The same problems emerged when the topic of the Burma Road was discussed. The Brits did not like the idea of a road between China and Burma.


    Re the Japanese experience with the ROC army, a great film was made in the PRC and released last year, called "The Eight Hundred, " it honoured (I think that's the best word) the fight by some Republic of China soldiers holed up in a Shanghai building surrounded by Japanese troops,

    Here's part of that film. (The whole film is likely available on Youtube):

    China lost some 14,000,000 (some argue that it was more) people fighting the Japanese, Only the Russians lost more, one estimate is 27,000,000,

  • Justaguy

    Interesting. That 14 million is small compared to the 45 million Mao is credited with killing himself.

  • Diogenesister

    Justaguy My point was the horror of dropping those bombs, not whether they were a technological marvel, and whether its something that it's appropriate to gloat over.

    It wasn't just the flash that killed, burning flesh off of bones. Firestorms raged for hours afterwards, killing thousands trapped under the debris. Black rain fell with contaminated soot and dust on areas miles around. By 1946, the blast heat and radiation had killed around 74,000 in Nagasaki and 140,000 in Hiroshima. Of course years later many were still dying of radiation including my step father-in-law who was a prisoner of war and made to clear rubble after the attack. His first wife and, later on, two kids also died of cancer and I often wonder if the two things were connected.

    I'm sure you know that at the time Russia had entered the war against Japanese who were now discussing surrender Many historians do not agree dropping the bombs were necessary to end the war. But apparently believing so is "reductionist"🙄

    Oh, and as to Europeans all speaking German if not for the Americans during WW2(and whilst I'm deeply grateful for every American soldier who fought)....try telling that to the (at least) 11 million Russians🙄

    When it comes to modern warfare, I think your'll find this generally applies:

    Redvip You forgot a big important factor. A lot of armament was sold and used, pockets were lined and wallets got fat. The goal of the war was achieved.

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