UN FINDS WMD...OK saddam lovers, what now?

by dolphman 280 Replies latest social current

  • wasasister
    wasasister

    Yeru: Let's make a pact, OK? You stop calling me a "peace-nick" and I'll not call you a "war-monger". Neither term is accurate - in fact it is this kind of name-calling that precludes what might be an interesting discussion.

    The original post, calling everyone who disagrees with immediate invasion and all out war "Saddam Lovers" illustrates this well. My immediate reaction was to say, "F-U, Idiot". Fortunately, I am not such a hot-head that I am willing to rush in with both guns blasting when I'm angry.

    Does that make me a "peace-nick"?

    Does it make me a "peace-nick" because I value the lives of our servicemen and women and only want them to offer up their lives for very good reason?

    Does it make me a "peace-nick" because I my tax dollars spent to defend my way of life against a clear threat, not someone's ego-driven agenda?

    Does it make me a "peace-nick" if I question my government, or does that make me a good citizen?

    Using labels as you have undermines your argument, and lessons my respect for you.

    Wasa/ not a Capricorn, not a "summer" and for SURE not a "peace-nick"

  • daveyJones
    daveyJones

    I prefer the term "HAWK", mongerer somehow implies I profit from war. I don't. The use of "Peacenik" was perhaps perjorative, but it applies to many here who would find ZERO justification for war.

    As one of those servicemen, I thank you for the concern; and the overwhelming vast majority of us soldiers DO see this as a good cause, a noble cause. We see Saddam for the evil he is.

    Sister, if you can't see Saddam as a direct threat to your way of life, you're being delusional.

    Does it make me a "peace-nick" because I my tax dollars spent to defend my way of life against a clear threat, not someone's ego-driven agenda?

    I'm assumming you think it's Bush that has the "ego-driven agenda. First question, how do you know. Do you have access to the same intelligence reports he does? I used to get fed just a bit of the intel that Bush recieves, No, he's concerned about the welfare of the world. Saddam, on the ohter hand, does indeed have an ego-driven agenda.

    Your opposition to the war in the face of the facts of Saddam's violations WITHOUT OFFERING VIABLE ALTERNATIVES to war

    ...

    It just was revealed that these weapons were found on the FARM OF A SCIENTIST WORKING WITH SADDAM's WEAPONS PROGRAM. Seems not too long ago the US government said they suspected that weapons were hidden at private houses. Yep, this was just an innocent oversight by Iraq and not an attempt to conceal banned weapons that it didn't declare.

    undermines your argument, and[DOES NOT] lessons my respect for you.
    Yerusalyim

    Edited by - daveyJones on 16 January 2003 22:18:20

  • wasasister
    wasasister

    I am far from "delusional". Unlike many citizens - including myself during my Dub years - I take time to inform myself as far as I am allowed to by my government.

    You infer that I think Bush has an "Agenda". That would be correct. I also think Saddam has one, as does Kim Dae-jung, as does Kim Jong II. To say there is a national leader who has only pure motives would be truly delusional.

    ALL nations act in their own self-interest.

    I did not say I am opposed to war under any circumstances. I would gladly back any war, if I felt there was a well-identified threat to my nation. Right now, I feel North Korea presents a threat every bit as immediate as Iraq. There are several despots in the world right now that fit the Saddam profile, down to the mustache.

    Are we going to take them all out?

    Offer an alternative? OK, how about this: Let the UN inspectors finish their job and issue a report. If they find WMD, take them away...by force if necessary.

    Overwhelming evidence suggests, however, that the inspection is a mere formality and that the decision to invade was made long ago. It angers me that if I in any way question Bush or his supporters, I am immediately slammed with labels such as "pacifist", "coward", "leftist", "peace-nick", "Hillary-loving-bleeding-heart-socialist-liberal", or my favorite to date: "Saddam Lover."

    Young men and women have offered themselves up on the alter of their country for many reasons - most of which purport to be noble but are in reality economic. If that's OK with you...well, I'm just glad I don't have sons of that age.

    Edited by - wasasister on 16 January 2003 22:57:43

  • livingagain
    livingagain

    Have you ever wondered if perhaps another world power may be ready to go off the scene.? I believe history teaches lessons but most fail to learn.Having the best military might does not gurantee victory if it is time for a world power to go. Somewhere along the way I think most in this nation think that being the greatest is a guarantee to longivity. World powers have come on the scene and gone and so will this one no matter what. Who can stop it? What brought most of them down? Was it not arrogance and haughtiness that that they could not be defeated? The greatest world power on earth can be defeated and whether you want to believe or accept it this will happen the only question is WHEN? Just my thoughts on this matter.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Yeru,

    You and I don't agree often, but in this case were soul brother's.

    Apparently those who are so passionate about 'no war', 'not enough evidence', 'give peace a chance', have not considered fully the ramifications if they are wrong.

    Just how much remorse, no complete abject sorrow, will they feel if because of thier collective disdain for those we elect to make these hard decisions, causes a hesitation or even a withdrawal from this confrontation, resulting the unleashing of just one of these KNOWN/UTILIZED Iraqi WMD are unleashed????

    Even more pathetic the picture, if one of these weapon's is released on our homeland soil. Oh sure let's just ignore the 3,000 lives sacrificed to the Islamic fundementalist agenda, I mean Saddam isn't an Islamic fundy now is he. Geeze the ignorance of some, is appalling!

    What does this ego maniacle despot have to do, to convince people he is out for no good? Come knocking on your back doors, with his firing squads, looking for anyone with the slightest doubt about his good will?

    He like any other bully, cries to be dealt with, if you are willing to abide a bully, then be prepared to suffer his blows, now or later, bully's always come back to those they can intimadate and bufallo. It time to slap the bully upside the head!

    Danny

  • Emiliano
    Emiliano

    Fear is a tool that can effectively be exploited. That is how Hitler got the support he needed.

    His propaganda about how they were threatended and they needed to attack in order to defend themselves.

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman

    Guys, Iraq is a pretty sizeable country and all the caches and chemicals and stuff is hidden somewhere out in the dessert, most likely buried. There's no way we're gonna wait years for the UN inspectors to sweep the entire country with a fine tooth comb.

    When Saddam kicked the UN Inspectors out in 98, they had plenty of time to find a good location or locations to store all of the weapons and chemicals as well as biological agents where it can never be found.

    Plus they could have built some underground bunkers as a lab of sorts where the work can be continued uninterrupted w/o fear of being discovered by the Inspectors.

    Saddam obviously is very confident that they would never be found when he again allowed the Inspectors back into the country.

    He's a scheming liar and will continue to lie about not having any kind of WMD anywhere that he rules over.

    We're not going to wait until something turns up that provides 100% evidence that he has WPD because by then it could very well be too late. We can't afford to wait. If we waited too long then he fires a warhead against a country he has targeted, it will be too late. That kind of regret is what we don't want.

    If he already has a long range missle that is nuke capable, would you not want to take Saddam out before he can be able to use it against the US or the UK or Israel?

    I would.

    Yizuman

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Why is it that every time we get into these discussion, someone has to bring up Hitler?

    The name chosen just to well up all sorts of emotion, thrown into the conversation willy nilly the subject matter at hand. Almost any subject is ripe for the 'well Hitler' was like that. Well la de da. The platitudes in bringing up this name are to numerous to mention.

    Lets just talk about the current despot Sadam, eh?

    Fear smear...........fear is one of the three reactions we use on a daily basis. Flee, Stay, or Fight, are usually what we all do when confronted by it.

    What are we going to do now? If you are not in FEAR of Sadam, you better learn some.

    Danny

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound
    Even more pathetic the picture, if one of these weapon's is released on our homeland soil. Oh sure let's just ignore the 3,000 lives sacrificed to the Islamic fundementalist agenda, I mean Saddam isn't an Islamic fundy now is he. Geeze the ignorance of some, is appalling!

    Actually Saddam isn't a Islamic fundy, as far as releasing a bomb on our own soil, well a nuke, since it wouldn't be air born, wouldn't probibly do anymore dammage then the WTC, biological might cause more, hard to deliver, chemical less than that. How many people are killed drunk drivers each year? How many people have died at the spent uranium used in the gulf war, since the war has been over, including our own service men, and american civilians? Not to mention the Iraqi children, living near the hiway of death. There is no honor in this war, he is not directly threatening american soil, he doesn't have intercontental bullistic missles, so he can't shoot at europe. Isrial already has nukes, they have shown they can readily defend themselves. We were right to go into afganistan, we were directly attacked, however this is simply not right, IRAQ has never directly attacked America first. You can put whatever spin you want to put on it, but this will always look like a dis-honarable war.

  • Emiliano
    Emiliano

    First, when the massive pile of documents from Iraq appeared, in photos, in the paper, and the U.S. immediately pulled out all stops to get first access, to shut down wide dissemination, etc. -- the smart money said that buried in the morass there would be evidence of U.S. (and European) culpability in aiding the Iraqi weapons programs, dating back to before the Gulf War, but covering the period of Hussein's rise and his worst crimes, etc.

    And lo and below...to be reported in tomorow's Die Tageszeitung (Berlin daily), here is a list of US corporations that alegedly supplied Iraq with nuclear, chemical, biological, and missile technology, prior to 1991. The list comes, it seems, from the original Iraqi report to the Security Council. This is a big breaking story in Europe - read the clip from this morning's Independent (London) below the list.

    ---

    U.S. corporations involved...

    A - nuclear K - chemical B - biological R - rockets (missiles)

    1) Honeywell (R,K)

    2) Spektra Physics (K)

    3) Semetex (R)

    4) TI Coating (A,K)

    5) UNISYS (A,K)

    6) Sperry Corp. (R,K)

    7) Tektronix (R,A)

    8) Rockwell )(K)

    9) Leybold Vacuum Systems (A)

    10) Finnigan-MAT-US (A)

    11) Hewlett Packard (A.R,K)

    12) Dupont (A)

    13) Eastman Kodak (R)

    14) American Type Culture Collection (B)

    15) Alcolac International (C)

    16) Consarc (A)

    17) Carl Zeis -U.Ss (K)

    18) Cerberus (LTD) (A)

    19) Electronic Assiciates (R)

    20) International Computer Systems

    21) Bechtel (K)

    22) EZ Logic Data Systems,Inc. (R)

    23) Canberra Industries Inc. (A)

    24) Axel Electronics Inc. (A)

    Additionally to these 24 companies based in the US, are nearly 50 subsidiaries of foreign enterprises whose arms co-operation with Iraq seems to have been operated from the US. In addition, Ministries for defense, energy, trade, and agriculture, as well as the foremost U.S. nuclear weapons laboratories at Lawrence Livermore. Los Alamos, and Sandia, are designated as suppliers for the Iraqi arms programs for A, B, and C-weapons as well as for rockets.

    Here is the report from this morning's Independent, in London...

    Leaked Report Says German and US Firms Supplied Arms to Saddam

    By Tony Paterson

    The Independent (UK)

    Baghdad's uncensored report to UN names Western companies alleged to have developed its weapons of mass destruction.

    Wednesday, 18 December, 2002

    Iraq's 11,000-page report to the UN Security Council lists 150 foreign companies, including some from America, Britain, Germany and France, that supported Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction programme, a German newspaper said yesterday.

    Berlin's left-wing Die Tageszeitung newspaper said it had seen a copy of the original Iraqi dossier which was vetted for sensitive information by US officials before being handed to the five permanent Security Council members two weeks ago. An edited version was passed to the remaining 10 members of the Security Council last night.

    British officials said the list of companies appeared to be accurate. Eighty German firms and 24 US companies are reported to have supplied Iraq with equipment and know-how for its weapons programmes from 1975 onwards and in some cases support for Baghdad's conventional arms programme had continued until last year.

    It is not known who leaked the report, but it could have come from Iraq. Baghdad is keen to embarrass the US and its allies by showing the close involvement of US, German, British and French firms in helping Iraq develop its weapons of mass destruction when the country was a bulwark against the much feared spread of Iranian revolutionary fervour to the Arab world.

    The list contained the names of long-established German firms such as Siemens as well as US multi-nationals. With government approval, Siemens exported machines used to eliminate kidney stones which have a "dual use" high precision switch used to detonate nuclear bombs. Ten French companies were also named along with a number of Swiss and Chinese firms. The newspaper said a number of British companies were cited, but did not name them.

    "From about 1975 onwards, these companies are shown to have supplied entire complexes, building elements, basic materials and technical know-how for Saddam Hussein's programme to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction," the newspaper said. "They also supplied rockets and complete conventional weapons systems," it added.

    The five permanent members of the Security Council -- the United States, Britain, Russia, France and China -- have repeatedly opposed revealing the extent of foreign companies' involvement, although a mass of relevant information was collected by UN weapons inspectors who visited the country between 1991 and 1998. The UN claims that publishing the extent of the companies' involvement in Iraq would jeopardise necessary co-operation with such firms.

    German involvement outstripped that of all the other countries put together, the paper said. During the period to 1991, the German authoritiespermitted weapons co-operation with Iraq and in some cases "actively encouraged" it, according to the newspaper which cited German assistance allegedly given to Iraq for the development of poison gas used in the 1988 massacre of Kurds in northern Iraq. It said that after the massacre America reduced its military co-operation with Iraq but German firms continued their activities until the Gulf War.

    Die Tageszeitung quoted sources close to the US Vice President, Dick Cheney, as saying the Bush administration was hoping to prove a German company was continuing to co-operate with the Iraqi regime over the supply of equipment allegedly useful in the construction of weapons of mass destruction.

    American weapons experts have recently voiced concern that the German Government has permitted Siemens to sell Baghdad at least eight sophisticated medical machines which contain devices that are vital for nuclear weapons. The machines, known as "lithotripters", use ultrasound to destroy kidney stones in patients. However, each machine contains an electronic switch that can be used as a detonator in an atomic bomb, according to US experts. Iraq was reported to have requested an extra 120 switches as "spare parts" during the initial transaction.

    The delivery of the machines was approved by the European Commission and the UN because sanctions against Iraq do not apply to medical equipment. Siemens and the German Government have insisted that the machines, which are being used in northern Iraq under a World Health Organisation programme, cannot be used to make nuclear weapons.

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