Long Intro From A Long Timer
After reading the rest of your excusogetics,I decided to reply. We dont disfellowship here,Unlike you and the org you make excuses for.
Hillary, I don't know if you are a good guy, or a bad guy. I'd suspect mostly good, with a heavy leaning towards being a spiritual "leader". Which is bad.
I do know that you speak with an authority that you do not have. For instance:
Spirituality is an individually gained state of heart that develops from a friendship with God and Christ.
Really? I mean, it sounds good to me, at least on one level, but did God tell you that? If so, where and when? Do you only mean God of the Bible? What about the billions of people who have no knowledge of the Bible, Jehovah, or Jesus? Are they circumstancially totally unable to be spiritual? Or do they only get a "shadow" of the real spirituallity? (can they have full lives that way?) What about all the people who do know much about the Bible, and have decided that it isn't inspired of God, yet they still believe in a Creator?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Posting to this board does not make one spiritual or liberated.
I have to disagree on the liberated part. At least comparatively, yes anyone posting here has been "liberated" from where we used to be. Keep talking friend, you may find that your own liberation, your "hillary step" may be a bit further off than you thought.
Anger is not spirituality, frustration will not bring the ‘peace of Christ’. Only understanding and forgiveness will.
Again, it sounds pretty nice, like the collective babbling brooks of a thousand liberal christian ministers, or Unitarian ministers, but what is your authority? "Anger is not spirituality", but can spirituality include some some anger? Is righteous indignation ok? Jahs anger blazed a few time didn't it?
"only understanding and forgiveness will bring the peace of Christ"? hmmm, again, sounds great, and I have come to believe it for the most part. But really, that didn't come from the bible now did it?
Funny though, here I am, not even sure I believe a man named Jesus walked this earth, or if he did was he anything like the picture painted in the bible, and yet, I really feel like I have that "peace of Christ" as much as anyone.
My bigger point? Just that the Society preached at all of us, taking an authority it did not have, for as long as we were associated. The society mostly refered to the Bible as it's authority, but really, it never told us why the Bible should be believed as an inspired book.
So if people like you and L.W. come along and basically do the same thing, even if you have a bit more magnanamous viewpoint than the Society does, don't be surprised if we get a bit irritated, frustrated, angry. Preachers and spiritual leaders are a dime a dozen. Even nice calm opiated ones.
We would like a side of logic with all that pretty emotion.
You raise some interesting points that I would like to answer and that I feel have an answer. I am leaving for a 14 day business trip this shortly ( actually to the US ). I do promise that when I return I will correspond with you over this matter.
Be good - Step
Hello and welcome Hillary_Step
I am pretty new here, so much of what I say can easily be disregarded.
I have not told my "story" because it is pretty ordinary and I see no
need to express. I have a wonderful family to communicate with.
I feel for you in many ways, and I suspect that you are still in a
little turmoil but are looking at the "philosophical" side of things.
Please excuse Tina, she is young and assertive and quite
sensitive from what I have seen. You seem to have rattled her cage.
I have nowhere near your experience in life and I am glad that I was
never appointed a servant.
Many people seem so intent on right and wrong that they miss the
lessons entirely, and JW's are particularly vulnerable to this mindset.
I agree with you that they seem to carry this mindset into their next
phase as ex-JW's.
Feel free to comment again, I for one enjoyed reading your thoughts.
Dave (alias BugEye)
I would like to say I am assertive,not aggressive-people often confuse the two,regards,Tina
Ps. Thanks for thinking me young lol. I've been around this world for quite a while and have seen my share of good and heartache....and have had diverse and varied life experiences. T
Regarding Babylon the Great / Revelation 18:4.
You did exactly what I was afraid you would do, you diverted the argument away from the main point. I don't want to get into who Babylon the Great represents, past, future, or whether it includes JW's, etc. That's a whole different argument / thread.
The point is, God told his people to get out from some group, some structure that was obviously going to be the target of his wrath. The principle was that HIS PEOPLE could get caught up in the downfall of said structure.
So that indicates that the idea of sharing responsibility for a group's wrongdoing is NOT beyond what the Bible teaches.
So my question still stands to you, about how you feel about being part of a group that you KNOW has hurt so many people? Please explain more about what makes you stay in. And do you have any fear about what will happen to you and those who are "good" inside the organization when it comes a-tumblin' down.
I need some honest answers! I don't think I'm being in the "mean" category by demanding that. I am seriously interested. If you are for real, you will answer that, any 14-day business trip notwithstanding.
I canot believe that I am the airport in the business lounge replying to your note instead of my buisness mail! Is this obsessive behaviour or what! Seriously, thank you for your note.
With all due respect Gopher I did answer your question and with it the issue, to date at least. If you remember you used REV 7:4-5 ( Babylon the Great ) as evidence of the fact that Christ has a judgment that ecompasses communities as well as individuals. i.e. community responsiblity. I replied by showing the REV 7:4-5 cannot be used to underline that issue as its interpretation is uncertain and I certainly do not think that the WTS interpretation of it being the community of 'Christendom' can be accepted without question as you seem to have.
So really Gopher, the ball is in your court. What I need from you is a scripture that shows that Christian judgment is anything but INDIVIDUAL.
You see to imply by your repeated desire for an HONEST answer that I am not being honest, or giving honest answers. Please re-read all our postings over this issue I have not side-tracked your questions though I have questioned your application of scripture.
All of this is a moot point really Gopher, as Organisations are made up of individuals. Judge the individual you judge the Organisation. Every person within and without the WTS seems, according to scripture to face judgment at some point ( John 3:16,17 ) on the faith that they put in Christ.
Really must fly! Talk to you later.
: ...Organisations are made up of individuals. Judge the individual you judge the Organisation
Non-sequitur. Judge the individual and you judge the individual. Judge all the individuals in the organization and you judge the organization. One jerk in an organization does not make a bad organization.
Twelve old clueless and out-of-touch jerks who've lied on purpose dozens of times and who wield supreme power over 6,000,000 people does, however.
I hope I'm getting the sense of the question under consideration here. Of course, all any of us can do is express that which seems most logical given the knowledge and insight we have.
In regard to the question of individual responsibility vs. community responsibility it seems to me that both hold a legitimate standing, depending on the circumstances of both the organization and individual. Let me illustrate.
Over the centuries the Nation of Israel was guilty of a great many things, beginning with their lack of faith in the Wilderness. Most of the spies came back with a bad report, and it scared the average people bad enough that they refused to go forward.
The nation as a whole was punished for this, as they were then not allowed to take possession of the land for 40 more years. All suffered due to that, indicating the communal guilt that all had.
Later on, that communal guilt increased to the point that the nation itself was destroyed, indicating that there are different degrees of guilt.
However, note that that wasn't the end of it there in the Wilderness. All men 30 years and older were condemned to die before the end of the 40 years. Why? I would suggest that it was because none of them had the courage to speak up when they should have. Because they had shirked their individual responsibility, dire consequences came upon the community. Note too, how age played a part in those who were held responsible. That's why I suggest that our circumstances play a part.
One is connected to the other, and I can't see how they can be successfully divorced.
Now, let's take it one step further. If there was an individual in a position of responsibility in the above illustration and he spoke up, one can well imagine that there would be repercussions. What should he do, quit? Resign his membership in the nation? This was still the nation that Jehovah was using to illustrate certain things to mankind, and they didn't have to be holy to do so.
Or would it be better to use his authority to minimize the damage that will be done to the little ones in his care? Would they be better off if he maintained his position rather than turn it over to a wolflike one? Could he perhaps work behind the scenes to alleviate the problem in the first place or make sure that it never happened again? Then again, maybe he would need to hang on in order to buy time until those innocent ones could gain the strength to survive the separation.
These are all judgement calls. My feeling is that each individual will have to use their own judgement, taking in all of the unique factors of their individual case, and then make their own decision accordingly.
Far be it from me to pass judgement on them, for I don't know the particulars of their case, nor of their strengths and weaknesses, physically, spiritually, or emotionally. Knowledge and understanding also come into play, too.
Them's my sentiments. :-)
Alias: Tom Howell
What you are suggesting is that those in charge practice deception and deceit to maintain their positions. However noble the motive, it amounts to falsehood. Such action is unchristian. These are not the qualities that gained them their appointments. People have to right to expect that those that stand before them and represent their organization do actually endorse the policies and beliefs that they claim to. If they don't then they are living a lie.
Genuine difficulties that can exist in religious organizations, causing the members to be torn between loyalty to God and their beliefs and loyalty to the organisation indicates that a human organization is not needed to worship God. The words spirit and truth come to mind.
You say ' far be it for me to judge' referring to yourself. Yet if you became aware of such a degree of dishonesty among those who claim to be examples of truthful living, your record shows that you would be quick to judge and say something like' I'm disgusted with the bunch do you'