Since I wasnt addressing you,but you decided to jump in here (which is your right)....Guess you're just one of the boys,thanks for the name calling.Actually you just made yourself look like an ass. I remember your bragodaccio and macho posturing from h20. You dont intimidate me in the least. And I dont care who you are(btw MY name is real,I dont hide anything either)I also remember all the posts where you hadnt a clue about science and others things lOL. Dont make me laff .(lol) You sound like an child who always has something to prove ' (this is my name i dont hide blah blah blah)' like a schoolyard bully. You always did seem to miss the points of posts.and you follow true to form here too lol. Your 'leaking boat' analogy makes no sense. If a boat is rotten you have only 2 choices-sink or swim , It's obvious what you chose.(and per your advice,if you dont like mine get lost) Thanks for the laffs in the past and as your post indicates now as well LOL. in other words. STFU
and the last goes for you to mag the troll lol.
Long Intro From A Long Timer
Magdeleen, you're all right. I'm not sure if this will answer your question, but. . .
Whether it be my 26th, 260th, or 2,600th, it makes no difference. I (nor anyone else) needs her permission to express ourselves on this forum or any other. The same thing applies to MD.
As far as "older, experienced, intuitive, writing"; sorry, I see no evidence of any of that. What I see is a sneeringly cynical, presumptious, overbearing exploitation of those they deem weaker (and therefore undeserving) than they are. We've all experienced too much of that from the elders, and I have no patience with it.
I also see a couple of women who leaves the impression that they've come to the unilateral conclusion that all men are beasts, and she's going to tar them all with the same brush. Bull. I'm not buying it.
H.S. didn't deserve any of that nonsense they've been throwing at him. All he's been doing is to try and express some sincere concerns that he has. They remind me of those people that you can't even say "hello" to in the morning unless you get a lawyer to phrase it for you. My advice to them: Grow up.
Alias: Tom Howell
Nope you miss the point again LW.
I certainly never said all men are beasts-thats the conclusion YOU came to.
I was speaking of SPECIFIC elder type behavior here.
And as usual you do exactly what you are condemning others of here.
There are many many wonderful intelligent warm men and women here. I communicate w/ them regularly and genuinely like and respect them,because thats what they have shown to others,unlike you. My advice to you? Get a clue
RE: Community Responsibility - Interesting thoughts but I would ignore the WTS interpretation of this issue and the NTW references which are often ‘bent’ to suit the issue.
Robert Thomas’s ‘Harmony Of The Scriptures’ has Matthew 7:18 matched with Luke 6:43-45, which reads - ’43. For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor on the other hand, a bad tree that produces good fruit. 44. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil: for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart’
I see no room for an organisational judgment or communal responsibility in the application of these verses. It seems to me that this was a rather iconoclastic thought from Jesus who began to remove the responsibility of action from nation to individual, even before the establishment of the Christian community.
We must all accept the responsibility of our own motives as it is on these that we will receive judgment. Remember Paul spent every Sabbath for the first 5 years after his conversion preaching in the Synagogues to the very people who had killed his Savior.
Revelation speaks of us all being judged ‘INDIVIDUALLY according to our deeds’. Those within the WTS who have caused harm will suffer the same judgment as those within any other group. Those who have done good will be rewarded wherever they chose to worship anything else surely, would reek of partiality. This judgment seems to me to rest on motive not doctrine, heart not head, after all we must become like children who’s grasp of deep doctrine might not be that well developed.
Your contempt for women is showing, Tom. Or should I say, your contempt for women who aren't submissive victims. You've called us featherheaded broads, man-haters, and disgusting. Your voluminous love for women apparently extends only to hookers and victims. Those women who dare to question your version of the status quo get to wear your nastiest labels. Because we dare to question your basic sexist assumptions, you feel the need to denigrate our motives, implying our morality is somehow inferior to yours.
Tell yourself whatever it takes to make you feel superior to us, Tom. By all means, be sure to tell everyone as loudly as possible that your manly experience is superior to ours, and your manly opinion is morally superior to ours in every detail. And be sure to loudly proclaim that those of us who were not sucked into that troll's fantasy are all evil disgusting feminist bitches. Extol the virtues of Rahab and Mary, fictional characters in a peternalist fantasy, as if that somehow has anything to do with anything happening here. Sell the hooker-with-heart-of-gold stereotype if it helps you. Just don't expect those of us who managed to live without taking that route to buy your wares.
Those of us who actually think about these things, know whose attitude is really disgusting.
Thank you for your support. The strange thing is that exactly the same posting reaction to my own occurred with a poster called Beroea on another board a whileago. A letter of introduction leading to a mention that he was an elder caught in limbo and the attacks began. Could it be that these people ‘liberated’ from the clutches of the WTS are still intimidated by labels? Do they respond in such a manner for a MS in this position? His post’s were actually among the most intelligent that I have read to date.
Look at Tina’s reaction to my post and note her reactions. She made a statement that was plainly flawed:
.....It sure is. The majority of other religions,businesses,political parties,etc. do not enforce medical policies that endanger and kill,as the wts does. They do not tear families apart with an emotional and psychological abusive shunning policy.
I countered thus:
.......If you feel that within my posting I am defending the WTS or the teachings that set it aside from Scriptual Truth, you have reacted rather than read. From Masada to Mons anybody who yields their conscience to others will either become a victim or make a victim. With all respect, your views of political parties and other religions seem to be based on a rather narrow Northern American viewpoint
Note this reaction:
........Actually,Im rather well traveled,and I stand by what I said in my posts. I always take the global view......the atrocity you saw in the middle east is comparable to the atrocities perpetrated by the wts: the Malawi political card disaster innocent children dying due to a specious and nonsensical medical policy. SO please dont take the high road with me. There is very little positive value in being a cult member. The costs emotionally,physically.psychologically,economically,academically,socially,spiritually out weigh any good-this is a case where it's not equally good and bad-the bad far outstrips any good.
I think saying everything in life has good and bad is rather ingenuous,,,,,,,,,case in point comfs comment,which I noticed you had no pat answer for.
I still view your take as excusogetics,
Her argument actually justifies my own!
I then noted:
..........Tina - With respect your statement above is inaccurate Even in North America a health policy seems to be enforced that allows people to die on trolleys because they could not afford medical insurance. Take a close look at the modus operandi of governments of China, many African countries, Haiti, South America, some areas of India and Burma, parts of the Balkans and Russia etc.etc. Who was it that deliberately sent Aids contaminated blood to Africa? My own nation the UK. My original argument Tina is where you find organisation, ANY organisation, you find some sort of pain. I have seen nothing that disproves that
She then replied with:
You totally missed what I was saying,,,I thought I was clear,I know about incidents in the world,I was/am in the medical field> Excuse me,but you are not handing me any new revelations here.. You condescend to me as if I were unaware of global issues. Im gonna leave it at this,because I dont interact w/ folks who so magnamously ''talk down to me'. enjoy the board,
Please note the argument and reaction. She argued:
.........It sure is. The majority of other religions,businesses,political parties,etc. do not enforce medical policies that endanger and kill,as the wts does.
I am sorry she is quite mistaken in her knowledge, anybody who reads can quantify her mistake for her. But note her reaction. To attack me, call me ‘condescending’ and ‘disfellowship’ me. I.e. I will not talk to your type.
MOXY - I think that I have seen this all before somewhere! Many seem to feel that liberation from the WTS automatically leads to some sort of superior spiritual position, it does not. Spirituality is an individually gained state of heart that develops from a friendship with God and Christ. Any person who felt that they had spirituality while in the WTS may find that it was dependent on other people, organisations, latest new truths’ husband, wife etc. This was not spirituality it was people tapping into a collective knowledge a social ‘spirituality’ that means little. This can clearly been seen by some who post to this Board and who were once ‘convinced’ believers. Standing and praying over others, teaching them how to become ‘spiritual’ and when the leave the WTS cease to believe in the Bible and God. Posting to this board does not make one spiritual or liberated. Being a non JW is meaningless if we are not willing to learn from what happened to us. Anger is not spirituality, frustration will not bring the ‘peace of Christ’. Only understanding and forgiveness will. Lone-Wolf who gave to the WTS more years than some of you have been alive seems to have gone through the strange experience and grown from it. His posts are wise. Angry young men ( and women ) are ten-a-penny.
Please re-read my comments to IslandWoman on the top of page 4 of this thread, in re: my concerns about the JW community & its members. Let me assure you, my concerns for certain ones I know in there are emotional & real. But I don't get to talk to those "certain ones". I do get to talk to you, as sort of a representative of those ones I care for.
As far as whether "community responsibility" is a Biblical teaching, we could go back and forth. OK, I'll try one more: Revelation 18:4, "Get out of her my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins."
Your quote regarding Babylon the Great bring me to another interesting point. Why are many who are well aware of the flawed WTS interpretations of these types of scriptures still willing to use these applications. What proof do we have that Babylon The Great applies to the world religions? Why does it not apply to Rome? I am very much of the Preterist view of many scriptures that I once accepted as future.
Nothing I stated was 'flawed'.but there are 6 million of you who like to think so. so much for ten-penny.
I dont think anyone can 'quantify' a mistake because I didnt make one.
What you view as 'anger' is simply someone calling you on your apologetics and excusogetics.
There are many reasons people post here, what in the world makes you think people post here for 'spiritual' reasons.
And there you go again,assuming and reading our minds about what we are and what we have or have not learned. Very judgemental and condescending of you . You dont know the people or their stories but jump in and make these blanket assessments. You attack the messenger by calling them frustrated and angry-sorry Im not any of those.
Self-righteous "I know better than you" elsder types are unfortunately a dime a dozen in the org.
Last thing that I recall was that you had 'disfellowshipped' me. Have I been re-instated'?