Long Intro From A Long Timer
welcome to our board. nice place. I've been a jw for 30 yrs, my husband for 50 yrs. Became, by choice, inactive 1.5 years ago. We've read/thought a lot, and I enjoy the interaction of different views here.
Please hang around as long as you like - doesn't take long to become a regular here.
Take care - waiting
You stated in your first post:
...I have been able to be part of and indeed support an arrangement for so long when I have been well aware of its theological and social flaws
Since you chose not to qualify those flaws, and you also stated:
I have been actively reading your posts the past while
...you imply that the theological and social flaws of which you claim awareness are those pointed out repeatedly on this board and others like it. Thus, you give your acknowledgement that such are real. You are telling us that you support the organization with full knowledge of its rottenness, its deceitful, manipulative operation, and its injurious, deadly fruit. Apparently, you expect us to respect such a choice.
There is a scene in a movie I recently saw (Enemy at the Gates) in which Ed Harris, playing, the part of a Nazi trying to find and kill a Soviet hero, has a scene with Stalingrad boy of about 10 years who has been playing double agent as an informant. He puts his hand gently on the boy's shoulder and speaks kindly, gently to him, explaining that they are at war and are enemies. As he speaks, he guides the boy and they walk slowly together. "I am very put out with you," he says, "that you did not stay at home today as I instructed you." And, in order to bait the Soviet hero, he hangs the boy where his body can be seen.
Your speech, your rationalizing, your gentle, soothing sentence structure and acknowledgement of the pain of others, remind me of this scene. A facade of loving concern covering up a cold, inhuman indifference to the lives and sufferings of others, for the sake of your personal ends.
Some on this board may aggressively vocalise against the path that others walk and may do so from or selfless or selfish motives how can one tell?
Hey, good move. When pinned down, try to steer the focus back onto the other. Never mind his valid point; let's talk about his motive in making it! Do we know why he pointed it out? Look at him (not me)!
These reciprocative exchanges are of very little benefit and take up far too much time.
I'm sure they aren't of much benefit to you in trying to whitewash your lack of backbone, to excuse your complicity.
Think what you wish of me and my motives for the time being.
I would, regardless. Thanks for giving your permission, though. Have a good weekend, yourself.
It is very easy for others to condemn the choices others make when they have not 'walked in their moccasins'.
Did anything I say seemed condemnatory? Sorry if it seemed so. That was not my intent. I only asked an honest question. Ask me any question, I will be honest with you.
Here again is my question,
So why have you not reached the decision to free yourself of complicity in the organization's wrongdoing, hoping that this leopard will change its spots?
You belong to an organization which would force you to treat me as "invisible", as part of the judging process. You (not having been involved) have NO idea whether the judgment was fair, impartial, or even close to just.
On the other hand, I try to trust all those who come out here, including yourself. I do not judge you, for how can I? I can only make an estimate of your words.
So please, stop holding back and answer the question. We're all waiting to hear an HONEST answer! I trust you're willing to supply it.
Comf, I re-enter the fray but definitely conclusively.
So you first accuse me of being someone I am not. Note that there is no question mark after your statement.
........You're "Friend", aren't you.
I wrote :
........Needless to say, I have found in life that nothing is completely good nor completely bad.
Then you make a gigantic issue over the use of the word ‘nothing’ instead of ‘no person’ although it is quite clear reading the following paragraphs what I actually meant
......I didn't say serial killer. I said serial rape-murder. Note: "murder" - not "murderer
True you did not and I apologise for misquoting you.
Originally I wrote that I was still attached to the WTS and therefore by definition supporting its arrangement though well aware of its theological flaws. I also mentioned that as time progressed I my reasons as to why I have not as yet detached myself from the WTS would become apparent. I have since made them known.
......Note that you specifically address your support of "an arrangement."
As I have been more than open about my own circumstances, let me ask you about yours. Were you ever a JW? If you were did you suddenly wake up one day rub the sleep from your eyes and realise that the WTS was not all you had thought it to be or did you go through a process of gradual realisation? If you spent one month in the WTS having realised its errors you to share in its complicity by your own definition. I presume that you are married as a single person would not have the confidence and life experience to attack the motives of a married person who has to think for two people in these situations not just one. How did your wife react to your great awakening Comf?
Now to answer some specifics:
..........When someone dies because the WBTS claims to speak for God in denying lifesaving medical treatment, do you balance the death in your conscience by thinking, "Well, the organization lies about having God's direction in this matter, but they keep tidy gardens, so it's okay?"
........When someone leaves the organization and thereby loses all contact with his parents, children and friends because the society says it must be so, do you excuse the destruction of this person's life and the ongoing torture he endures by telling yourself, "Yeah, but they encourage people to be honest?"
........Since you chose not to qualify those flaws, and you also stated……
I cannot defend the indefensible, why would I want to qualify these doctrinal flaws? It is the people I have an attachment to not the doctrines. I had hoped that the sense of this would come through in my original posting but I obviously failed miserably.
Your speech, your rationalizing, your gentle, soothing sentence structure and acknowledgement of the pain of others, remind me of this scene. A facade of loving concern covering up a cold, inhuman indifference to the lives and sufferings of others, for the sake of your personal ends
This one really takes the cake. On a few written notes posted on a bulletin board you have such a piercing understanding of my nature and motives! You ought to hire yourself out as a long distance brain surgeon Comf. I can assure you at fifty-five years of age I have suffered, have seen suffering and had more than my fair share of personal tragedy in my life outsoide of any of the pressures that the WTS added. Cold-hearted indeed! A young man speaks.
........Some on this board may aggressively vocalise against the path that others walk and may do so from or selfless or selfish motives how can one tell?
Now I wonder where you learned to selectively quote with such alacrity! Why not include the rest of the thought?
.........Only if one can see the love behind it. Any actions that do not spring out of a genuine love for others has to be suspect.
A most judgmental and arrogant statement now comes from your keyboard which I think shows much more about you than it does about me.
........I'm sure they aren't of much benefit to you in trying to whitewash your lack of backbone, to excuse your complicity.
So Comf please allow me to beg out on any further exchanges. If you at present do not understand where I am coming from then I accept that and all your focused criticisms. I would ask that you try to be a little less judgmental and a little more understanding in dealing with those whose lives you have little, if any familiarity with.
I did not in any way mean to imply that you had judged me. My note was to three persons and general in nature.
I will HONESTLY answer your questions at a later time, I promise. This is my first post and I certainly set the cat among the pigeons and have spent far to long at my screen. Perhaps a paragraph in the note just written to Comf may help you to see why we are exiting on our own terms in our own time. If I have not responded to you in a cuople of days, please remind me.
Just as a thought, I do not hold to the WTS view of it being the sole road to life. The wheat and weeds are individuals, all will answer to Christ as individuals for what they have done. The idea of community responsibility is another Levitical anachronism that clouds the true picture of a beautiful individual friendship with God and Christ. How do you feel about this?
Have a great weekend -- Steep Stepper
Thank you for your cheery welcome.
Hallo Hillary Step
Funny name. Are you a climber of what? I do know the Hillary Step - the crux point to the roof of the world on Mount Everest. If you manage that step only a few ones is left to the summit. But if you fail that point!!!!!!!!!!!!
Besides that - I enjoy your post. I’m also an elder from Europe still playing the game. I don’t like the game but that’s just my positions right now. Waiting to see what happen and still take care of the family. It’s easy to follow your own wishes but you have the take care of your family as well. They need times – a lot of times after my opinion. I try to be patience.
Yes, a lot of JW are good people and many need care and understanding. The Borg as the Master is a demanding ONE, and a lot of JW’s have many problems meeting all the demands. But anyway many are trying the best they can just to survive and live for the next day
I don’t think in general the people - even in the GB - are evil, but the System build up has become close to that statement.
So be careful out there. You’re walking on fire. Take you time.
Thank you for your introduction. I enjoyed reading your posts earlier on in the year. I also remember that you have a family and a love of the mountains as have I. Perhaps one day we will climb together. Have no fear Beroea, I will do what it takes to keep my family and my life intact. I have been to many chilly peaks before and survived!
My best to you - Step
Well, it's into the fray, but it seems to be winding down now.
Welcome HS to the board--it's great!
Tina and COMF, your points seem to be well taken and constantly muddied up by HS.
HS, you are not by any chance a writer for the WT, are you? You do have a knack for muddying clear points and defending the indefensible.
Congratulations! Hold on!