Thinking about Bill Bowen...

by Pathofthorns 112 Replies latest jw friends

  • ros
    ros

    My apologies if this has already been presented somewhere in all the discussions on this topic. In case not, I thought it might be of interest to quote the "Flock" book:

    Page 93 under the definition of Porneia:

    ... Also included are sexual abuse of children, including practices involving a catamite (a boy kept for purposes of sexual perversion).... Victims of sexual abuse need to be treated with extreme thoughtfulness and kindness. Elders should always do what they reasonably can to protect children from further abuse; follow the Society's directives on such matters. (g85 1/22 p.8)

    Under the topic "Handling Judicial Cases", subheading "What kind of evidence is acceptable?" page 111:
    Quote:

    What kind of evidence is acceptable?There must be two or three eyewitnesses, not just persons repeating what they have heard; no action can be taken if there is only one witness. (Deut. 19:15; John 8:17) . . .Strong circumstantial evidence, . . .
    If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident, their testimony can be considered. Such evidence may be used to establish guilt, but it is preferable to have two witnesses to the same occurrence of wrongdoing.

    On seeing the above reference in the first quote here to the Jan.22, 1985 Awake!, I looked it up. The magazine featured three articles on child abuse.

    ~Ros

    Edited by - ros on 21 November 2002 23:45:35

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    I just got home and checked out this Thread.

    How come all of fjtoth's Posts have been Edited to be Blank?

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Apparently edited by the author at 18:32.

    Any comments fjroth?

  • RevMalk
    RevMalk

    Well, that could be my fault. I was rather harsh on him. I didn't mean to be really, I kept trying to tell him to back off, but he wouldn't. Everywhere I turned he'd hammer me with ridiculous comments about me commenting. As if I shouldn't be allowed an opinion here just like everyone else. I do think everyone, including fjroth deserves a chance to be heard. But I do tend to freak out when I'm told I shouldn't enjoy that same privilege. I don't know for a fact that this is why he left (with his posts) or not, but he should know that in reality I have no problem with him (or anyone else) voicing his/her opinion. I do, however wish for the same courtesy.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Didn't Hawkaw comment that if he was going to appear as a witness in court that some of the things he had said could be a problem?

  • Brummie
    Brummie

    Well, that could be my fault. I was rather harsh on him.

    Nasty man....very unthoughtful of ya rev.

    Brummie

  • abbagail
    abbagail

    Hi Hawk: You wrote:

    hmm .... f ..... j ......toth ... any relation to the Frank Toth who testified at the Boer trial and former Sec. at the Georgetown Bethel?

    I just want to say its too bad your testimony didn't go over too well - if thisis you. I kinda wished you (if it is you) were preped better by counsel for that phase of the case. It was nice of you (if it is you) to at least help though.

    As I have stated to Dr. Penton and I will state to you (if it is you) - its wise NOT to use your name on these sites if you (if it is you) are planningto help more victims at court. All of this information will be used against you in a most impleasant manner.

    hawk

    Was the name F.J. Toth mentioned in any of the Boer trial news articles? I just sifted through a few of them, out of curiosity, to see what F.J. Toth may have said at the trial. The only "Frank" I could find mentioned in the news articles was Frank Mott-Trille who testified on Vicki's behalf. (Of course, there certainly could have been two Franks who testified, but only one mentioned in the articles I looked at).

    No big deal, I was merely curious to see if there were any "good comments" by FJToth anywhere on the planet because everything I read a few days ago written by him in these threads was, IMO, a total turn-off. Looks like I got here too late to see his more recent (now removed) comments... my loss, of course! (sarcasism)

    Thanks Hawk!

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Hi guys and I am so sorry but I am very busy. Thus, I must apologize to Island woman first for not getting back to you.

    I didn't read this before Island Woman, or may be I did but your request was in one long thread. I will look into this situation for you Island Woman. I assume this has to deal with Bill's dfing process? I must admit your posts and waitings posts are very interesting to read on this subject.

    As for Mr. Toth - yes a nice gentleman by the name of Mr. Frank Toth came forward to help out in the Vicki Boer trial. I can't thank him enough. I recall that he provided a few documents and was used as a "rebuttal" witness for the plantiff, Vicki Boer, and thus, was the last witness in the trial. Unfortunately, I don't think Mr. Toth was preped well for court - I don't believe it was his fault or anything - just didn't work out to well. As one who has done a lot of work testifiying - I know what it is like.

    And the reason that his name was not in the newspapers is because the press focused on the closing arguments that immediately followed Toth's evidence.

    But I really gotta stress to all of you. If you are willing to help in court, please don't be an idiot and post your name on these boards. Most people can figure out who I am if they decided to go to Zev's site on the UN issue or Osarif's site and look up monochorionic gestation. But I am in no way an expert on JWism history/child abuse nor am I planning to take the stand in that type of case. So I can help out the lamestreet press and do what little I do to help "push" things along. But, for those who do want to help in this very critical role, one has to be very careful about what one says on these boards or in public, if one decides to use ones real name. In my mind the only one who has managed not to damage their credibility on this issue is Barb. Of course she knows exactly what my feelings are in the matter (which were told to her about a year ago).

    hawk

    Edited by - hawkaw on 22 November 2002 8:35:41

    Edited by - hawkaw on 22 November 2002 8:49:58

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Hawkaw,

    Even though you expressed your appreciation for Franks participation in Boer trial. Why is it, that you seem compelled to add the caviat that his testimony was less than effective?

    Your demeanor here is enough to caution anyone interested in 'helping' in these cases, to give pause.

    I think you are playing the same game as Grits and other's here have done..........you just couldn't resist could you?

    Danny

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Well danny that is exactly what happened based on "expats" and others information - who were right there in court as well as other people which in cludes a major producer and a reporter. It was NOT a caviat but a fact and it was posted on the board. It wasn't Mr. Toth's fault but he wasn't preped.

    And if you think for one second that Penton's creditibility is not damaged by what transpired on this board, then your head is completely buried in the sand.

    My point is very straight forward based on my experience - think about what you are doing if you are planning to take the stand to help victims. Is it too much to ask that these guys NOT give their names in public boards?

    And if you think I am playing a game .... then you should see what counsel will do when they get Mr. Toth or the others on the stand.

    If you don't want to listen to my experience - fine - continue babbling about the games I play .... but remember, a witness is going to testify on behalf of a young victim who was seriously abused, then re-abused in a JC and likely shunned by her family while the friggen perp is ... what ... knocking on doors. That victim has gotten up a helluva lot of courage to take this matter to court and again, relive the horrior in public. That victim needs the best possible witness who will show the best independence possible, act like he/she doesn't have a "chip on his/her should, and act in a "professional and ethical" manner. After all it is all about helping out the victim.

    hawk

    Edited by - hawkaw on 22 November 2002 9:27:28

    Edited by - hawkaw on 22 November 2002 10:4:0

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