What did you do?
This "still" guy is a textbook example of the type personality described in "The True Believer." Most likely he was raised in a dysfunctional family dominated by a tyrannical, drunken father, or perhaps it was his mother that was the drunk or junk head. This personality type needs, requires, what he feels is absolute truth, an infallible leader, an extravagant hope. In order for this personality type to ever feel good about himself, he must push all he considers not part of the "in group" down. In order for this to happen, he must despise all who are not part of the "in group." I've seen his type over and over and over in my cult de-programming sessions. Next year, he could be a moonie, or a scientologist, or a holy roller. Any cult that pushes his buttons will do. But he isn't a candidate for a normal, loving, caring spiritual community. And as much as he wishes to believe he's a part of a logical religion of the mind, this is a highly emotional association for him. Thus, he's resistant to actual truth, to real love, to the genuine call of the spirit. It's a waste of time attempting to use logic and love with a person like "Still" until he's had a considerable amount of therapy.
Best to move on to a normally minded person.
The Big, Arrogant Dummy Opens His Mouth and Shoves His Foot Right In it:
: To all those who have in some way left the organization (be it disfellowshipping, disassociating, dis-whatever):
What was it you did?
In my case, I was born into the Cult and literally forced to join it. In Ray Franz's case, he ate lunch with someone who had voluntarily left the Cult. It's idiots like you and your dub-ilk who always blame the VICTIMS for their situation and for the hate that idiots like you show towards them. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only religion of any size who shoot their wounded.
: Come now, I know the amount of people who "realized that WT doctrine was in serious error" and politely handed in their letter of resignation has to be very small.
Obviously you know nothing moron. Roughly four out of five dubs have left over any ten year period. It's simple math and all you need are yearly WT stats to figure it out. Assuming NO one left your religion and no one ever died in your religion then the total number of dubs at the end of any year would be the total number of dubs from the end of the prior year plus those baptized, right? If NO one ever left voluntarily then the total number of dubs at the end of any year would be the same as I just mentioned, less the 80,000 or so the WTS says it disfellowships each year plus the statistical norm of about 1% of the total who pass away in death. Try that math out for three or four years and you'll see a whopping decrease in the total number than you expected when you guessed that "relatively few" left on their own.
If you're like most dubs, you'll be too lazy to do this. The facts are that roughly four out of ten dubs leave the Cult in any ten year period. That's 4% a year, or roughly 240,000 per year. Only 80,000 are disfellowshipped according to the society. Those who leave voluntarily outnumber those who are kicked out by 3 to 1.
: The level of bitterness and hostility towards the closest-to-what's-biblical organization has to develop some other way.
For that assertion to have any value other than as toilet paper, you must prove that the organization is closest-to-what's-biblical. Most of us don't accept any claims without proof, especially extravagent ones like that. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Where is it?
: What did you do? Come on, show us your cards. Thought it would be "fun" to go and get drunk with worldly friends? Thought it would be cool to start smoking? Lose faith in the Word because of too much associating with the world? (if you still remember your Scriptures, you should know what stand is taken).
You dubs are as predictable as rain. Singing the same old WT mantra I was singing 35 years ago: "they left, so they must all be immoral drunks." What a crock of shit. Again you can offer no proof other than just an example here and there. But the same can be said of any religion, or of any Cult. Some leave and become drunks, or in the case of JWs, many stay and remain drunks. I know. Most of the elders I worked with over the years were drunks.
: You cheat on your wife or your husband? Thought it would be refreshing to taste the grass on the other side of the fence? Fun to covet your neighbour's spouse? Or did you just decide to get a preview of what marriage is like, and get into some good pre-marital shagging?
More shit. See my comment above.
: Ya started gambling, and never repented? Thought it would be kEWL to support a system that's based entirely on greed and the misfortune of losers?
Shit keeps on piling up.
: Thought you'd forget about any Christian morals for just a while, and take a little vacation from all that boring monotonous preaching of the Word? Bible says we can do that?
"Christian Morals as Defined by the WTS" - HATE anyone who disagrees with you. HATE anyone who left our religion. HATE the world. PRAY for the destruction of 6 BILLION people, including innocent babies. And don't smoke.
: Just turn completely atheist and believe in worldly "wisdom"?
What do you offer as an alternative? "Watchtower Wisdom?" Organ transplants are cannibalism. Vaccinations are taking filthy animal pus. Germs don't cause illness. Slit your throat if you get tonsilitis. Those are ALL quotes from "Watchtower Wisdom." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I'd rather believe God was an invisible purple unicorn than believe any of that shit. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
: And here you are, holding hands with others just like you, hoping that the feeling of unity will make your deeds somehow more justified. Hoping for the pain to go away.
The only pain is in my ass when you spout crap like that.
: I have just heard today that possibly several (as much as ten) kids from a neighbouring congregation might be booted out tomorrow, because of drugs. I suppose I'll see them posting here any time soon!
It must have been their "good Christian upbringing" in a destructive cult that caused them to go over the edge. Once again you are blaming the Cult victims. But you're probably too stupid to see the truth.
: PS. Don't give me the "if you're so much in the truth how come you're reading apostate web sites" -routine.. I've been there, done that. I started my search for truth with these kind of websites. Freeminds.org was my first source of information about Jehovah's Witnesses. Today, I am a baptized brother in good standing. Goes against the statistics, eh??
Translation: "I'm a big hypocrite, and proud of it."
Well there, StiLLinTruth, I thought I'd seen it all but you really take the cake.
You've read a number of "apostate" websites and yet still came into "the truth"? I think you're lying. More precisely, I think you're deceiving yourself, so it's not quite lying.
Maybe you glanced at a few such websites, but you can't possibly have carefully read and understood what you read. If you're up to it, I'll give you a few challenges and we can let readers see what you do with the information. I predict that if you accept a challenge, your response will be along the lines of, "It doesn't matter if the Watchtower Society lies. The leaders are still God's chosen." That will prove that you've got the cult mentality.
You've already proved you have the cult mentality. Concerning Raymond Franz's Crisis of Conscience you told Francoise: "... it's a testimony of a disappointed old dude who thought he should run ahead instead of waiting for the holy spirit to fix things he THOUGHT was wrong. Strange how others have waited, and are now old and happy and still with us." That's among the most asinine things I've ever read.
First, Franz was not an "old dude" -- he was 59 years old when he was booted out of the Watchtower organization. For you to say that shows that you're callow and infantile, having to stoop to deriding someone merely because of age. What, then, should you say about the current Governing Body members who are pushing 90 and have demonstrated themselves to have time and again "run ahead" of God's Word?
Second, Franz's disappointment came not simply because he couldn't get things done his own way, as you imply he wanted. The disappointment came from gradually realizing that some of his fellows were just plain liars, and were no more Christians than they were rocket scientists.
Third, you're assuming that holy spirit has anything at all to do with running the Watchtower organization, which if true means that God is braindead. Since God is not braindead, it follows that JW leaders are deceiving themselves and those who, like you, blindly follow them.
Fourth, Franz never tried to "run ahead" in any sense that JW leaders can point out. He worked entirely within the system, doing exactly what other GB members did all the time. If you disagree, then tell us, please, in what way did Franz "run ahead", and who did he "run ahead" of?
Fifth, it's true that a lot of others have "waited" and are more or less happy. But for a large percentage, all that "waiting" means is that they were in Bethel or the JW organization so long that they couldn't afford to leave, since if they did they'd essentially be out on the street. So it's no great thing to have "waited". Furthermore, a large fraction of older Bethelites are extremely unhappy with their lot in life, and many wish that they never had gone there. That's why there's such a high incidence of heavy drinking, and even out and out alcoholism among long time Bethelites. If you don't know that, then that simply proves your extreme naivete. Try to talk to some of the Bethel housekeeping women and you'll get quite an earful. A related point is how so many women who go to Bethel end up with "chronic fatigue syndrome" or some such ailment, which clears up nicely after they leave Bethel and start a normal life. These type of syndromes are common among JWs. If you don't know that, then you're naive.
In sum, your statements about Franz's experience prove that you did not read his book with understanding.
As for why many left, like me they simply got tired of being lied to and being told things that were untrue, or being told things that were almost but not quite true. A real representative of God does not lie. The Watchtower Society, both corporately and through many of its individual representatives, does lie. Therefore JW leaders cannot be speaking for God, which is their fundamental claim to fame. Why you would want to associate with people who lie to you is beyond me. Most likely you've fallen for the pretty picture they paint of the future, and that has overridden your common sense. Likely you want to have a pet lion in the New World.
You'll likely claim that JW leaders don't lie. Are you up to the challenge of dealing with some specific and undeniable examples?
As for my status, I'm not DF'd, DA'd or dis-whatever. I simply left. I still communicate regularly with many JWs, including family members. They know me to be a reasonably moral, honest person. Some even agree with my reasons for leaving, even though they themselves stay in the silly religion for any number of reasons. So you can't use your favored ad hominem against me, nor against many others who left for the same reason. That's frustrating for you, I know, but that's life.
“Happy is the people whose God is Jehovah! -Psalm 144:15”
You refer to that quote as if you are the only one here who worships the true God, Jehovah. Your statements are so dogmatic I wonder if you are for real. This is not the way Jesus reasoned with his opponents. Sounds more like the Pharisees. If you are for real the people here will be there for you when your eyes are opened. And I’m not a bitter ex-Jw kicked out who “forget about any Christian moral”. I’m an elder, maybe in your congregation, who hopes you open your mind and heart and learn to be more Christ-like.
Dear Mr. StiLLinTruth:
I'm intrigued by your assembly illustration of "getting on the bus" with the "fat woman." I think therein lies the answer to your metaphysical quandry!
the fat woman sitting next to you with two kids on her lap proceeds to have her picnic, and spreads her stuff all over the seat, with her children annoying you
What is this woman eating? Is it fried chicken by any chance? Are you annoyed because she's fat? Would you be less annoyed if she were skinny? Is this bus equipped with a toilet? Why do the kids bother you? Do you hate kids? Is the fat woman eating potato salad? Did she offer to share? Can you be happy that she and her children are happy to have a picnic on a bus seat amidst unfriendly passengers?
OK, Mr. StiLLinTruth --this is what I want to know!
PS: Why the two capital "L's" in the middle of your name? Did you do it just for the 'ell of it?
stillspouting-you have denied being haughty in a way only a haughty person could. bravo. also your posts have shown that you have now reached the intelligence level of parrots-creatures with the ability to mimic words and expressions drilled into them by others. no offensense, parrots. answering questions posed, with WT rhetoric, IMO, is no proud accomplishment. i have heard, almost verbatim, the same answers from too many witnesses to count. have you encountered fredhall? he seems a most worthy counterpart for you. TR might also have a picture that would help define your problem. thanks for the comic relief, my wife and i have had a good laugh. cheers-nate
p.s.-that's the same wife i am unable to support because of the fact that i smoke.
whatz up spammers
hi my name is Adrian john clague and i am a new jo hov
i would like to confess that i have only turned jo hov because i need to feel love and safe with people that ican trust. I changed after i caught my wife with my sister 2 weeks ago doing the forebin in the spa. Please take me in your arms and accept me as one of your group
"Hmm" number one:
What did you do? Come on, show us your cards. Thought it would be "fun" to go and get drunk with worldly friends? Thought it would be cool to start smoking? Lose faith in the Word because of too much associating with the world?
"Hmm" number two:
PS. Don't give me the "if you're so much in the truth how come you're reading apostate web sites" -routine.. I've been there, done that. I started my search for truth with these kind of websites. Freeminds.org was my first source of information about Jehovah's Witnesses. Today, I am a baptized brother in good standing.
Have we met before? You remind me an awful lot of someone who used to post on H2O under a different handle. I think it was "TheSheep."
Does anyone here who "defected" from H2O have access to last year's posts?
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."
I changed after i caught my wife with my sister 2 weeks ago doing the forebin in the spa. Please take me in your arms and accept me as one of your group
yeah, right. was your mom and grandmom in there too?
Lord, you dorks need to get more creative.
Ready, fire, aim. Spike Milligan
He is from New Zealand!