What is truth?

by Heisenberg 114 Replies latest jw friends

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Welcome back Heisenberg !

    You asked above : "  Whatever you now believe is not necessarily the truth just because you believe it. I sense that many who are ex-JWs now feel that whatever they now believe (whatever that may be) is actually the truth. Why? How did you prove that your current beliefs are correct? Are you using the same thinking process that led you to believe that JWs were correct? ".

    For nearly six decades as a born-in JW I believed many things. I could not swallow the whole collection of teachings, but the basics I believed.

    I then discovered that by the measure I was using, the "yardstick", namely the Bible, many things I had been persuaded to believe were simply not true, and therefore the JW religion was not the true one, and was not of God. The "imperfect men" and "light gets brighter" excuses simply do not work, as has been shown many times on this Forum.

    I eventually got to the point where I decided the only sensible, rational, non-delusional way to lead my life was not to "believe" in anything, "belief" being in the sense of trusting that something is true without satisfactory evidence, and to lead an Evidence-based life.

    The evidence for and against has to be weighed in a Forensic way, the way an impartial Jury of experts in the field would do, employing the Scientific Method.

    If such evidence is lacking to satisfy this imaginary Jury, then the proposition, or belief, cannot be trusted by me, and quite frankly, does not impact upon my life one bit.

    This allows for evidence to turn up in the future, at which point I can trust the proposition/hypothesis.

    I do not see any other way to decide what is "true", and to make sense of the universe and Life and Everything as far as man can at present.

    Anything that does not submit to this methodology is just someones, maybe mine, opinion, and is not anything like "truth".

    As you rightly say, just because we fondly believe something, and have believed it for a very long time, that does not make it true.

    Only rigorously examined and scrutinised facts based on testable evidence can establish something we can call "Truth".

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    So would you have led your life differently if you were not taught that these were the ‘last days’? And there was no 1914 or generation teaching?

    As a true Christian, you should be living your life the same regardless of when the end is to come.

    Yes I think I would have. Let me give you some examples.

    I left school as soon as I was old enough legally leave and become a full time pioneer. This I believe was encouraged by the Watchtower. My bother in-law did the same thing. Although living thousands of miles away. If you wish I will try and provide quotes from the Watchtower. I understood from the information that was provided from the Watchtower that 1975 ended 6000 years in a 7000 year creative day. The 7th (See God’s Eternal Purpose Now Triumphing for Man’s Good 1974 WTB&TS pg.50/51 & pg. 131 &132) I also believed and had faith in the good news that we preached. The generation that saw the events of 1914 and was of a reasonable age to understand them would not pass away before the tribulation started. There was urgency to our preaching.

    At the time of my pioneering a brother in the congregation, at break time from the field service, was encouraging me to go to the same art school he was attending. He had seen my work and felt I should pursue it. My cousin also encouraged me to do similar. The following paragraphs had an effect on my decision

    • Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15

    "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the "last days" in 1914. Jesus foretold: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."-Matt.. 24:34.

    Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"

    I think my life would have been different if I had pursued what I am good at.

     

    A few years later I had a man from the bank come to talk to me regarding my finances. We discussed some insurance policies and it moved on to taking about having a private pension. I could have afforded to start paying into one at this time. However if I had faith that the end would come within the generation that would not pass away I would not need one and I told him this.

    Some years later when I had stopped attending the hall, I again had a man from the bank round to my house to discuss my financial requirements and he informed at this time, noticing that I had turned down a pension some years earlier that had I taken the pension policy out then at the earlier time it would have provided me double the amount of income that my pension would provide now, these years later. This will seriously impact on my life.

     

    I could provide you with other examples to do with my life growing up and my marriage but feel this are probably enough. With both of the examples it has nothing to do with being a Christian and living my life as a Christian but has everything to do with having faith in the good news that we preached.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    As a true Christian, you should be living your life the same regardless of when the end is to come. "

    That was a Mantra for me when I was a JW. But my vision was dim, I thought the morality of the Bible was sufficient, of course it is not.

    The Misogynistic, Homophobic, pro-Slavery "morality" of the Bible is not good enough for the 21st Century.

    Even the Golden Rule expressed by Jesus in the Gospels is a half-arsed affair, we should treat people as they wish to be treated, as far as we can ascertain, not simply how we wish to be treated.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Heisenberg, glad to see you're still around. What do you know about Christian neutrality (cf. James 4:4)? Are you aware that as a Witness, you're not even allowed to be a member of Y.M.C.A. You should not take sides in politics and you're not allowed to vote. As the saying goes, the Christian finds himself in the world, but is no part of the world (cf. John 18:36). Some spent years in jail because of their Christian neutrality. In Malawi the brothers and sisters had to endure torture and death for refusing to buy a political card.

    Yes, the common excuse of the Witnesses is "they are part of the UN and OSCE in order to do good to the brothers." But what about one’s Christian neutrality? Is it only applicable to some (the R&F) and not to others (the leaders)? Is that not a clear case of double standards? You say you’ve read CoC, then you should know about the Mexico-Malawi scandal.

    A good example is the nation of Israel. What happened to them when they made alliances with the nations? The prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah had a lot to say about it.

    Do yourself a favor and study what the publications have to say about Christian neutrality. See who they identify as “the disgusting thing causing desolation” (cf. Dan. 11:31; Matt. 24:15) and “the beast that ascends out of the abyss” (cf. Rev. 17:8). The Revelation-Climax book (pp. 196 - 198) has a few very interesting paragraphs and illustrations on “the mark of the beast.” If you have access to the book, look it up.

    So what do you think will happen when you confront the brothers with these enlightening facts (from their own publications). Yes, you’ve guessed it. You are disfellowshipped. Don’t you think there’s something wrong with an organization that is afraid of the truth?

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    You must take responsibility for your own decisions and not blame an organization for hoodwinking you into thinking that you must live your life differently because the end of the world is coming.

     

    I don't think I understand what you mean.

    If someone hoodwinks, deceives you I don't think pointing that out is not facing up to the responsibility of making your own decisions.

    Just as one gives thanks for his daily bread one would not be so thankful if it made one ill. As everlasting life and faith are involved I think there is reason to discuss these things.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    Ucantnome - I agree.

    We make decisions on information that we receive from what we believe to be a reliable source. In this case an organization that claims to be appointed by God. If it turns out that the 'reliable source' is just a bunch of liars, any scorn should be directed at them and not their victims. That is how the law works in any civilized country.

    Unfortunately religion is not held to the same standards of law that secular groups are. Religion is too powerful to take to task, and if it were, courts would ultimately reach the conclusion that God is just a man made excuse to exploit others. All religions would have to be shut down. Those with the power to do this have too much to lose.

    It is because of this, that the Watchtower Society is not called to account for the lies it has put to print and spread around the world. The record is there for all to see.

  • torrent
    torrent

    Welcome Heisenberg,

    I think you may be confused about what this website is about and trying to lump everyone here into a single mold.  The people here are very diverse.  They are not robots that all believe the same thing like JW's do.  JW's come here to express thoughts that they can't in the confines of the Org.  No one should be too critical of anyone else, even JW's.  There is not a human on this earth that has a right to judge another, and that includes the GB.

    Just for the record, I believe the JW Org is a cult.  That is why it is so hard to get away from and why it is painful when people are removed from it.  I don't believe that of all religious groups.  It took a while for me to see that.

  • Isle of Lewis
    Isle of Lewis
    You must take responsibility for your own decisions and not blame an organization for hoodwinking you into thinking that you must live your life differently because the end of the world is coming.

    Heisenberg, you are correct.

    This forum has always attacked and shouted down anyone who points out that we must take personal responsibility for our decisions and not solely blame JWs for our problems.

    Its just not a popular message here, despite it being true and healthy. 

    Blaming the WT is easy.  Identifying, accepting responsibility for, and correcting our deepest personal issues is hard.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Heisenberg, you wrote this reply:

    Why is the issue of shunning a problem? If the bible was very clear about who should be shunned and how this should be done, would that be more acceptable to you?  Human society has always shunned people that do not conform to the rules. If you commit a crime, you may be punished by being sent to jail and excluded from society until you 'repent' by changing your attitude. Who determines these rules? In many lands, adultery and homosexuality are still punishable by death or jail. It is up to each group of people to decide the rules and the consequences for breaking them. Wasn't the great schism of the Catholic church an act of shunning? 

    You [as most JWs also] seem to think that disfellowshipping and shunning are one and the same thing. Very few ex-JWs argue that is wrongful that the congregation is entitled to terminate fellowship with those who refuse to comply with the rules, moral or doctrinal. However, shunning is another matter. Even the Bible doesn't support shunning as it's prescribed and imposed by the Governing Body upon the Witnesses. The historical context of the Christian communities in the first and second centuries is very important to give a proper understanding of what the apostles Paul and John meant when they discussed how should Christians deal with transgressors and dissenters. Of course, that historical research doesn't interest the Governing Body at all, because it would uncover serious theological implications that colide with the teachings from the Society since the 1930's; it would besides reveal just how removed the contemporary meetings are from the Christian gatherings originally. Because when you understand how these gatherings worked, then it becomes clear what Paul and John were talking about, and it wasn't surely the shunning as taught by the WTS.

    Eden

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Hey Heisenberg, hopefully you're still checking this, I wanted to reply to your issues.  

    First, about attacking WT vs other religions. I am looking at other churches and religions, I've even attended some.  Many of these other christian churches are non judgemental. This prysberterian church I've been to a couple times because of my significant other...they teach about Jesus teachings of love and not being judgemental. In many of these, if a member leaves, they do NOT shun or teach shunning them or teach that they are mentally diseased and avoid like the plague. 

    Muslims are similar to JW's in that way, but an ex JW who left because their conscious couldn't allow them to remain a JW after learning the truths the Governing Body hide and cover up, whose family is taught by the WT to hate and treat as if dead, not even emailing them, vs other christian religions that teach that they universally accept Jesus and each person has a right to their own faith and beliefs and not to push or judge others, is a big difference.  If WT didn't teach to shun those who chose not to worship the governing body and obey them and put them above the bible, then most people wouldn't care. It's the damage the WT teachings have when they demand obediance and say salvation is based on obeying the Governing Body then when they are shown to be wrong time and time again, they'll ask you bend over and accept that, "In past times Jehovah's Witnesses (that's YOU, NOT THE GB) have been presumptuous and over eager....".  

    As for Christmas.......yes some pagan practices were adopted and yes Jesus was probably not born then.  So why should or would christians celebrate it?  I asked the same after I left of some close friends.  The bible says first not to judge what day a person puts as higher than another, some may observe the full moon, etc.  If a person observes a day let it be to give glory to God. People I've talked with said when they do christmas, they are NOT celebrating some old pagan god, but celebrating Christ and how God sent him for our sins. To convert pagans and make it easier, they took the evil out of the pagan practices and made them christian.  Also, most of what is christmas today isn't rooted in anything.  Most is modern.  If a person really does look for everything in origin, they would have to use different calender, call days by different names, not do wedding dress, cake, etc, so just because something meant something 2,000 years ago doesn't mean it does today.  ALSO if you do take something on it's roots, the WT is VERY hypocritical that it matters what something meant or originated 2,000 years ago but ignore the WT's teachings and practices from 10 years ago let alone 100 years ago when it was in it's early days. If you bring up the old teachings and a chain of events on how the doctrine today is what it is, you'll be told the only thing that matters is what is taught today. The WT likes to have it's cake and eat it too.  

    Now, your question on believing in God or not.  Yes I do.  Thought I'm not certain on truth, but I believe in God or a God because when I see all life, plants, the cycles on the Earth, etc, I see intelligent design. As humans advance in science with computers, robotics, etc, I see all life on Earth as a very advanced science, creating biological lifeforms. You'll find one side insists all by chance that it came out of nowhere because no evidence a superior being made it and another that since we can't find the real origins or replicate,etc, that it's evidence it was created etc.  Both sides require equal faith.  If matter is eternal, can't be created or destroyed but changed in one form or another, how is that easier to believe then God having always been (neither created or destroyed).  

    You say nobody can go from JW to a protestant or catholic faith after being a JW.  To a catholic faith perhaps. If you learn history, Catholics had full control, then protestant came from Luther's movement, they exposed the false teachings of Catholics and that a person can learn and read the bible on their own. That then spawned all the other faiths since those who went protestant side could disagree and another variation made.  JW's are a form of protestant that have slowly gone back to Catholic methods with the elders/circuit overseer, disfellowshipping, control, etc.  


    From my reading of the bible, it shows before 'the end' that there is no unified one set of people.  Christ's people and God's people are scattered, they are those who have love among themselves.  In many of these religions you can find good people.  The bible says after Jesus leaves it would be the spirit that would guide people, not a physical temple, from what I've read it seems the bible teaches truth can't be found with people but they can encourage when you meet and associate with like minded.  




Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit