by Viviane 250 Replies latest watchtower bible
Phizzy - I don't where that is in Josephus, but it does sound about right. In Against Apion he states that the temple was rebuilt in the second year of Darius, if this refers to Darius II then his second is 490 years from the destruction of the temple in 70CE, 421 BCE. If you are awear of another ref can you let me know, thanks.
BB
So, you are left with exercising good judgement, whether a report is true, half-true or false. And you have to allow for the benefit of the doubt. Take for example Josephus' testimony on Daniel. Do you accept it as fact or fiction:
Nope, not an option for you. A key component of science is "observation". That's no longer an option for you. Their reports and observations can't be allowed in. Everything you are describing is using science. You just said that is NOT valid, you need to find another way.
Josephus (ca. 100 CE) would view Daniel as “one of the greatest prophets,” because not only did he prophesy future things, but he also fixed the time during which these would come to pass.
Yes, but science (which you can't use in any way) clearly shows Daniel was written over the years in parts and pieces by different people.
Does anyone have a clear example of a specific prophecy with names, dates, specific events from the Bible? So far we have zero.
Bart, two points for you attention. First, the title "anointed one," is translated Messiah in Hebrew and Christ in Greek. In Israel the prospective king was anointed with oil. So anointing in Israel was closely associated with kingship not priesthood (see Saul, David, Solomon, etc.). Second point, notice the context, i.e., the rest of Daniel. In Dan. 2:44 , 45 God’s Kingdom is mentioned. For this kingdom a king needs to be appointed. In Dan. 4:24 , 25 mentions that in time God will appoint a king of his choosing. This king is identified in Dan. 7:13 , 14 as “someone like a son of man.” Jesus often referred to himself as “the son of man.” The time for his appearance as designated king is predicted at Dan. 9:24-27 . Afterwards the city and the temple were to be destroyed.
Phizzy, the earliest Christian mention of the Seventy Weeks prophecy is in the Epistle of Barnabas (ca. A.D. 100). Otherwise no extended discussion of this prophecy has been found in Christian literature before the late second century A.D. Prior to this, however, several Jewish writings include chronological schemes, some of which are based on the passage (e.g. that of the Essenes). The writers of the DSS, like Leolaia, believed in two messiahs, one a king and one a priest. The earliest clear Christian reference to Daniel 9:24-27 is by Irenaeus in his Against Heresies (ca. A.D. 180). In Book 5.25.3 he clearly linked the prophecy of the little horn in Daniel 7 to 2 Thessalonians 2 , and he indicated that the Antichrist will be in power three and a half years, etc.
Jesus often referred to himself as “the son of man.”
Where did Jesus refer to himself as the "son of man"?
I dont need to provide any evidence - GMJALMT
I stopped reading right there.
You never really left the cult did you?
Prove any of the prophecies in the bible were written before they happened, you can't do it, one can not even prove Noah, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, even existed. Enough said!
Phizzy and Bart, I forgot to add the following excerpt from the article:
From several statements made by Josephus, it seems clear that he viewed the fulfillment of the prophecy in the events leading up to A.D. 70 rather than in the Maccabean era.
Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 166. 2009 (662) (183). Dallas , TX : Dallas Theological Seminary. Footnote: Although Josephus’s comments are somewhat vague, this seems to be the most sensible interpretation of his remarks. See especially The Jewish Wars 4.5.2 (318, 323) and 6.2.1 (109-10), in The Works of Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1987). For further discussion see William Adler, “The Apocalyptic Survey of History Adapted by Christians: Daniel’s Prophecy of Seventy Weeks,” in The Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity, ed. James C. VanderKam and William Adler (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1996), 210-16; Beckwith, “ Daniel 9 and the Date of Messiah’s Coming,” 532-36; F. F. Bruce, “Josephus and Daniel,” Annual of the Swedish Theological Institute 4 (1965): 148-62; and Geza Vermes, “Josephus’ Treatment of the Book of Daniel,” Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (1991): 149-66.
Viv, Jesus refers to himself as “son of man” many times. This is but a few. There’s many more: Matt. 8:20; 9:6; 17:12; Mr. 2:10, 11, 28; Luk. 6:5, 22; 7:34; John 3:14; 5:27; 8:28.
iv, Jesus refers to himself as “son of man” many times. This is but a few. There’s many more: Matt. 8:20; 9:6; 17:12; Mr. 2:10, 11, 28; Luk. 6:5, 22; 7:34; John 3:14; 5:27; 8:28.
Really?
Matthew 8:20: Jesus replied, "Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
Matthew 9:6: But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, take your mat and go home."
Matthew 17:12: But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
Mark 2:10, 11: "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins "-- He said to the paralytic, 11 "I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home."
Mark 2:28: So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
Luke 6:5: Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Luke 6:22: Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.
Luke 7:34: The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'
John 3:14: Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
John 5:27: And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
John 8:28:So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
The ONLY scripture that even comesclose to saying what you claim is John 8:28, but even then, contextually, Jesus saying he is I AM, not the Son of Man. Along with his previous claim of being I AM, it fits.
In any event, Jesus never became King, so the prophecy fails. You can, of course, argue he is Kingin heaven, but that'sa theological argument and not a historical one.
Viv, you’re attempting to apply scientific method [principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses, according to Webster] on the following:
So.. if you reject science, observation and ALL eyewitness testimony is out the window for you.
Without that, what are you left with?
You're left with Blind Faith!!! Which we know is very accurate! (Haha, obviously being sarcastic)
