Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane 250 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Phizzy

  For an alternative view on this "prophecy" Leolaia has some long and interesting Threads here on JWN on this subject, I think some may dispute her Point No 10, but this edited extract from one of her threads is interesting in the points it raises :

  "Actually this is a good example of how later interpretation can create the application to events that "fulfill" the oracle.

  1) This is not a prophecy of "when the Messiah would come", it is an oracle concerned with how long the Temple and the city of Jerusalem would remain in a state of disgrace (culminating with the desolation of the Temple described in the preceding chapter and in ch. 11),

  2) There isn't one "messiah" (anointed one, i.e. the high priest of the Temple) but two, with the first arriving at the beginning of the 62 weeks and with the second departing at the end of the 62 weeks,

  3) The oracle expands Jeremiah's original 70 years into 490 years on account of the sevenfold "curse" written in the Law of Moses, and the author starts the 490 years with the "word to restore and rebuild" Jerusalem; this indicates that the "word to restore and rebuild" was not sometime later than the putative time of writing (the first year of Darius the Mede) but prior to it, at the start of Jeremiah's seventy years,

  4) The "word to restore and rebuild" is in fact a near verbatim allusion to Jeremiah, which contained exactly such a promise by the "word of YHWH" and in v. 2 the author already refers to "the word of YHWH given to Jeremiah the prophet",

  5) It is thus not a novel prophecy that Jerusalem and its Temple would be restored but a repetition of Jeremiah's,

  6) The 360-day Jewish schematic calendar was fixed to equinoxes and solstices and thus did not lose 5 days a year as your computation requires,

  7) There is no reference to crucifixion per se in the oracle,

  8) the events you attribute to Titus correspond to the last half-week of the 70 weeks which does not fit into your chronological scheme unless one postpones the 70th week (a contrivance imposed on the text from interpretation),

  9) The Christian interpretation also ignores the exact correspondence between the "people of a coming ruler" in the seventy weeks oracle and the "forces of the king of the north" in ch. 11 (which relates to the historical actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes), and

  10) the oracle was most likely written during the Maccabean period (not in 538 BC) as most commentators recognize.
• 

  M*A*S*H

  As a non-believer I offer the following Psalm 111:7-9; the promise that god's word essentially will be enduring.

  Personally I hope this one will fail soon, unfortunately it seems to be taking a while, and (IMHO) my judgement of its failure would come with the death of the Abrahamic religions. However, if I was a believer, I would be pointing this one out saying 'this is prophecy made 2+ millennia ago and is proving true': Believer or not - this is a very bold statement to make - however I would guess that all religions make similar claims so perhaps that disqualifies it (or maybe adds more weight)?

  That said - this is not exactly a prophecy - it’s a divinely inspired poem of sorts however the 'see also' back it up.

  Psalm 111:7-9

  7 The works of His hands are verity and justice; All His precepts are sure. 8 They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness.
  9 He has sent redemption to His people;
  He has commanded His covenant forever:
  Holy and awesome is His name.

  See also 1 Peter 1:25, Isaiah 40:8
• 

  Viviane

  GMJALMT:

  1. Required no special knowledge

  2. Theological argument, not historical (and even your Bible contradicts itself on what happened)

  3. Theological argument, not historical (and even your Bible contradicts itself on what happened)

  4. Theological argument, not historical

  5. Theological argument, not historical

  6. Theological argument, not historical

  7. Theological argument, not historical

  8. Theological argument, not historical

  9. Theological argument, not historical

  Your fellow Christians are arguing with you about these things, I may consider them when you guys get them sorted out.
• 

  Viviane

  Prophecy, apocalypticism, theology, are not about science. I think that's your problem.

  That's the only way we would ever know if a prophecy came true.

  1. Prophet says something specific (names, dates, places, events) will happen that he could not possibly hypothesize or know from available knowledge

  2. Observe and see if that thing happens <- That's the science part

  Rather try categorizing them under history (prophecy = history in advance), which you will find is not an exact "science" at all.

  If it was history in advance it would be. History IS a science. You just said to no use science then said to use it!

  Jesus Christ as king designate was paraded before the people (the end point of 69 weeks of years). A week later he was killed "with nothing for himself." It works for me, a brilliant prophecy that was indeed fulfilled in detail.

  "Cut off with nothing for himself" doesn't imply "dead". It was all part of a plan whereby he would be King of Reality. The "prophecy" doesn't say what would happen, how it would happen, who it would happen to or the results. It's so vague it could mean a bartender cut him off. It literally isn't capable of being fulfilled in detail because there ARE NO DETAILS, except what the reader pushes back into the text.

  Let's not concentrate on Archer's philosophy in life, rather note what he said, which is a prophecy in itself.

  How is it a prophecy? In any event, modern archeology and science has proven him wrong. Much like you wouldn't rely on a dentist from 1940, it's time to update.
• 

  Viviane

  As a non-believer I offer the following Psalm 111:7-9; the promise that god's word essentially will be enduring.

  I offer this counter-point... which version approved by whom and how do we which, if any, are God's word?

  Phizzy, that is an excellent post. Thanks!
• 

  M*A*S*H

  It seems I am now playing devils advocate for a (kind of) biblical prophecy - how have I got myself into this mess?

  To start as any good apologist should I would like to point out, you failed to ackowledge any merit in my post and just flippantly brushed it off without consideration almost as if you are not really interested in exploring the possibilities, it seems you are just baiting to beat down posters.

  You have slightly shifted the burden of proof with your question. If there is a prophecy that god's word is enduring, just because there are potentially false versions of biblical texts, if just one true version remains the prophecy would be still on track. Also the "covenant" both new and old, depending on your theological leanings are well understood and could be said to be enduring. As an atheist I can honestly say I have an understanding of the "His covenant" such as it is laid out in the bible (which ever version) - it has so far proved enduring.
• 

  OneEyedJoe

  As a non-believer I offer the following Psalm 111:7-9; the promise that god's word essentially will be enduring.

  First off, you could never say that's fullfilled because it doesn't have an end date. The best you could say is that it hasn't failed yet. But that's not even the best argument against why that's not a good indication of divine inspiration.

  If this prophecy wasn't fullfilled, it wouldn't matter anyway. This prophecy fails the 3rd rule in the OP because it does not require special knowledge. To illistrate: I will go on record, right here, right now in predicting that this post will endure forever. I'm now a prophet to anyone who ever reads this post. As long as someone knows this prophecy, the prophecy appears to be true. The only way for the prophecy to fail is if the prophecy itself is no longer around to be considered, so no one would be point it out as having failed. I'm sure that similar prophecies have been made in the past by other (failed) religions, but because the prophecy failed, no one can point them out.
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  Viviane

  To start as any good apologist should I would like to point out, you failed to ackowledge any merit in my post and just flippantly brushed it off without consideration almost as if you are not really interested in exploring the possibilities, it seems you are just baiting to beat down posters.

  Nice... ;)

  So, playing my part, of course I didn't. I simply seek clarification on what you consider God's word.

  You have slightly shifted the burden of proof with your question. If there is a prophecy that god's word is enduring, just because there are potentially false versions of biblical texts, if just one true version remains the prophecy would be still on track.

  The burden always lies on the person making the claim. Hence the need for clarification on what you specifically mean by "God's word".

  OneEyedJoe also made an excellent point, that something with no end date can't ever possibly be proved true.
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  M*A*S*H

  I do agree it is impossible to say that this prophecy has been fulfilled in the best sense.

  I understand your argumentation with regards;

  To illistrate [sic] : I will go on record, right here, right now in predicting that this post will endure forever.

  However, if in two thousand years a worldwide religion had spread based upon your post made on a backwater internet forum, I am sure some may start to claim divine inspiration on your behalf.

  From my perspective, it seems the writers of the bible were essentially claiming their words would last forever. These books are some of humankind's first moral teachings, stories, philosophy, etc.. written down either created or borrowed from oral tradition. The claim they would endure into the world we know today and have the influence they do is quite remarkable; evidence for some of divine intervention, evidence of the power of memes for others, for me... suggestive that despite all our advances the human mind still lingers closely to that of our forebears that first walked upright.

  Again, I do understand that the prophecy does not fit exactly into the crtieria required. However, I think it could hit the 'special' knowledge requirement - there were many religious views around at the time, who could have known that this tiny religion would grow to dominate the western world and still be going strong in 2014!? I do understand your point re the quote above - but I am playing advocate.
• 

  Viviane

  The claim they would endure into the world we know today and have the influence they do is quite remarkable; evidence for some of divine intervention

  We also have the words of Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Hindu, Islam Zoroastrian, Semitic and other religions fron thousands of years ago. Are those also here because of divine intervention?

  Again, I do understand that the prophecy does not fit exactly into the crtieria required. However, I think it could hit the 'special' knowledge requirement - there were many religious views around at the time, who could have known that this tiny religion would grow to dominate the western world and still be going strong in 2014!? I do understand your point re the quote above - but I am playing advocate.

  Understood, I am playing my part also... as myself :)

  My counter-argument here is that what special knowledge is required? Lots of people say things will last forever. Religions say that all the time. Why is it special that, out of all of those claims, one happened to maybe be right (since we can't ever prove it came true)?