The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

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  KateWild

  We still haven't properly addressed the Watchtower's theodicy which is a bit remiss on an ex-JW forum.-cofty

  Okay fair point it's probably for another thread but I will comment here that WT is a cult, to control people to participate in cult rituals like meetings and FS WT teach Satan and the demons are everywhere and that's why bad things happen to good people.

  But they also teach you can be free of Satan and the demons if you put the Jehovah (GB) first, thus causing the perpensity in a cult member to feel they are not participating enough in cult rituals such as prayer, meetings, FS, study, family worship.

  This is a paradox. Either the world is ruled by Satan and good people suffer or God provides for those serving him and they are free from suffering. There is no both. The Creator is just as evil as Satan for permitting suffering.

  Kate xx
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  KateWild

  hey hey page 99 nearly there cofty
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  jgnat

  During the gruelling job summarizing flamegrilled's argument, I found it took about ten pages for him to run out of steam along a particular argument line.
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  flamegrilled

  During the gruelling job summarizing flamegrilled's argument, I found it took about ten pages for him to run out of steam along a particular argument line.

  No one ran out of steam. At least not at my end. But once it's said, it's said. I'm familiar with the urge to have the last word on everything, but there comes a point that you've made your point and the reader can decide.

  I think this will tip to 100 pages mostly on people like S&R commenting simply on the fact that it's close to 100 pages. But that was one of the more useful contributions he made to this thread :)
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  Apognophos

  My ony interest in this thread is in addressing this theodicy as it relates to natural evil.

  ---

  The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil... That is one reason why there is so much suffering.

  (Illustration of a teacher and a smart arse pupil who thinks he knows better)

  I suppose this kind of answers itself, right? If the goal is to show that man cannot rule himself, then why did God allow the earth to experience natural disasters? Similar to how he made A&E imperfect somehow before putting them out of the Garden; why don't we get to use our full faculties in this attempt at ruling ourselves? Not to mention that A&E shouldn't have been able to make a choice for all of their descendants. None of us chose to sign up for this experiment.

  A more accurate version of the Society's student-teacher illustration is that one kid challenges the teacher, and the teacher allows him to teach the class for the rest of the year. At the end of the year, she administers her own final exam and we find out if the kids have been taught well enough by the student to pass the teacher's test. Meanwhile, none of the other students agreed to be a part of this lesson that is being taught by the teacher to the one rebellious student. Also, during the year, the teacher allows the classroom to fall into disrepair -- ceiling tiles falling on people's heads, desks collapsing, etc., just to make her point that when the rules aren't followed, bad things happen. She does all this because someone from the administration was sitting in on her class when she was challenged, and she feels a need to prove her right to teach the class even though no one in their right mind would have suggested letting children teach themselves. We would call this teacher an insecure jerk, wouldn't we?

  As for the Flood altering the way the world works, we can ignore what science has to say about this and simply ask the question, "Why did God need to bring a flood to kill the wicked? Why not strike each one down with an individual lightning bolt or something? Why kill nearly all the world's animals as well as alter the environment massively?" I don't think the Society has ever attempted to explain why the Flood was a necessary form of execution.
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  flamegrilled

  None of us chose to sign up for this experiment. Apo

  That's a fair point, but if you did have a choice between not existing, or playing your part in this universe, what would you choose?

  We would call this teacher an insecure jerk, wouldn't we?

  I have to agree. I really dislike the illustration. The JW framework of theodicy doesn't work for me.

  As for the Flood altering the way the world works, we can ignore what science has to say about this and simply ask the question, "Why did God need to bring a flood to kill the wicked? Why not strike each one down with an individual lightning bolt or something?

  I guess the ark would then not have existed, and the figurative part of the event - salvation by baptism - would be lost.

  But actually if I had to choose between a lightning bolt and drowning, I think I would go for the latter. But that's just me.

  Why kill nearly all the world's animals as well as alter the environment massively?" I don't think the Society has ever attempted to explain why the Flood was a necessary form of execution.

  According to the Genesis account something happened as a result of the badness that caused "all flesh" to be ruined. It's pretty sketchy on detail so who knows what that might mean?

  Anyone who claims to have ALL the answers, whether in supporting the Bible account, or in writing it off completely, is not worthy of listening to IMO. Anyone who questions things and deals realistically with uncertainty and probability I can listen to. Hence why I jumped into this conversation to challenge Cofty's certainty. It's not that I begrudge anyone their personal certainty based upon the balance of probability, but just don't try to tell me it's a logical certainty if it isn't.
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  snare&racket

  Flamegrilled, give yourself the powers your god has....

  now yes or no, would you save those people from the tsunami, please just a one word answer first.
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  flamegrilled

  please just a one word answer first. S&R

  Idon'tknowbecauseIdon'thavehisknowledge
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  snare&racket

  "I don't know" is an answer that will suffice.

  interestingly, is it prudent to worship a god, you know so little about regarding his morals and actions? Maybe get to know his motives for what appears immoral, before getting down on your knees?
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  humbled

  Flamegrilled--

  We used to have milk goats--and we ate them, too.(SORRY!)

  We had ultimate power over them. We had more affection for them than the bible/christian God does for his children on earth.

  It conflicted US that we named them and butchered them. But to cause them suffering--Hell no.

  Is this a flawed relationship with other creatures--no doubt!--But to cause terror and suffering to them--NO.

  I nursed with my own breast a newborn goat when there were no nannies "fresh" to keep her from starving. again--why? if only to hold a knife over her later....But I couldn't see her starve, suffer.

  god can do better than this, can't he?