The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  cofty

  I want to try to explore the obvious gulf between the two sides of this discussion.

  To us atheists a quarter of a million deaths is a tragedy beyond description or comprehension.

  Every one of those individuals really perished. They were not fallen sinners, they were not "dead in their sins" or "children of wrath" as the bible claims. They were people just like us. People who loved their families and who had dreams and ambitions for themsleves and their children.

  There is no superstitious platitudes that can be mumbled to make it all better. All of that human potential is lost, gone for good.

  Life, this human physical life really matters to rational people. When tragedy strikes we can't take refuge in comforting stories about spirits and eternity.

  To theists, regardless of claims to the contrary, this life is relatively unimportant - when they are talking about the lives of others at least.

  To them this world is broken and temporary. Humans are sinful enemies of a perfect god. Death is a temporary inconvenience - apart from their own death of course. Tragedies on the scale of the Asian tsunami are something to be wrestled with intellectually. The existence of a loving god is a given that is not open to debate.

  This is why we hear theists repeatedly complain that atheists appeal to emotion. Yes we do. We rely on evidence and reason but we also deal with the reality of suffering and eschew ivory tower theories.

  I have been on both sides of the divide, but when I was on the theist's side I was incapable of approaching human suffering like it was a theological sudoku puzzle.
• 

  Simon

  And again flamegrilled - any excuse but attempt to answer a question that you cannot eh?

  You are living up to the steryotype closed-mind theist - all circular arguments, flip-flopping claims, jumping from point to point in a pitiful attempt to be pinned down and finally, claiming that it's all unfair and rigged against you.

  Lame.
• 

  cofty

  Cofty and I actually agree that this whole discussion hinges on probability and not certainty.

  No I absolutely do not.

  It has been shown that christian theism is contradicts reality and therefore is fatally flawed.

  Unless you can show that drowning a quarter of a million people is an act of perfect love when seen from the perspective of some mysterious fact you have still to divulge.

  The probability of christian theism being reconciled with natural evil is zero.
• 

  humbled

  flamegrilled,

  Sorry I am late to reply. I had to leave for the day just after my post and just read your reply.

  You do see evidence of God's power AND love in the universe?

  I have a deep love for nature and the workings of the universe. What I've experienced in my own body gives me a tremendous awe for existence and consciousness. It may have been created by intelligence and power--( both you AND cofty fall short of 100% in your certainty of your position). I am not certain either.

  But if I might see power in a creator, his love isn't certain. But I am certain that I cannot gather figs from thistles. If the story is that we reflect the character of god then I cannot see a loving God giving birth to a child and then killing it.

  So that is why I assumed you don't see evidence of Power-AND-Love in god either.

  I know the missing piece is (probably)that the Christ story because it involves resurrection. But how negotiable are the features of salvation in the bible? If working people don't land in the right theology-aren't we damned again? The salvation is limited.

  You understand "salvation" differently?

  But all in all--it is in the gulf that exists between love and power that our doubts do not find rest.
• 

  LisaRose

  I think this is a very big divide, it's not surprising that it cannot be bridged. To me, those who have a strong belief in God will never be persuaded by facts, they accept or reject evidence based on whether it fits in with their beliefs. They start from a position of belief and any thing that doesn't fit is rejected or explained away. It's a fundamental difference in how they see things. I struggle with this, I would like to believe in God, but the facts don't fit for me.

  I am not convinced by the beliefs of others, many people believe in very many different Gods, and they all believe conflicting things, so they can't all be right, and to me there is no more evidence for one than for another. Your belief in any particular God is a result of geography and/or your parents belief. So the fact that my parents were Christian does not prove Christianity is right, at least not to me. There are some good teachings there, but also some bad, as with most religions.

  Like Cofty, I cannot believe that a loving God would allow the atrocities that men do to each other if he had the ability to prevent them. Whatever excuse or rationalization that is used to explain that falls short for me. Even if the people who died will go to heaven, the fact is they died a horrible death, that cannot be undone, their families miss them horribly, that pain cannot be undone, it happened, you cannot wish that away.

  A loving parent might discipline a child, but would never torture or kill, no matter what the reason. Nor would you as a parent allow someone else to torture and kill your child if you could prevent it, no matter what. Any person who did so would be a monster. They might have a reason in their own mind, but the nature of the act means that the reason is meaningless, because the act is not justified no matter what the reason. Why is God not judged the same, why is he given a pass? He supposedly inspired many books about himself, but doesn't give any rational excuse for it other than to blame everything on Satan, whom he created. He created a world and let Satan loose in it.

  I think about all the Jews who died in World War two, millions of people, starved, tortured, beaten and murdered, because of their belief in the God of the bible. What possible reason could their be for God to allow such a thing? No matter what God does later, it doesn't mean that suffering didn't happen, it happened, it was horrible, it cannot be undone.

  Just my two cents, I am not interested in debating it, but after reading through most of the 90 plus pages, I thought I earned the right to comment, lol.
• 

  humbled

  LisaRose--"I would like to believe in God, but the facts don't fit for me."
• 

  Apognophos

  I agree with everything you said, LisaRose, but it's interesting to note that your expression "it happened, it cannot be undone" was also addressed in JW theology by the scripture that says that "the former things will not be called to mind". It's actually a bit eerie because they're seemingly talking about divinely-induced amnesia. But no matter how horribly someone died, they won't remember it according to JWs, so presumably it's more or less wiped from their mind. That's part of how JWs are so readily able to accept mass suffering and death; in the new system, it will be like it never happened.

  I think this is a very big divide, it's not surprising that it cannot be bridged. To me, those who have a strong belief in God will never be persuaded by facts, they accept or reject evidence based on whether it fits in with their beliefs. They start from a position of belief and any thing that doesn't fit is rejected or explained away.

  Yes, though the divide is between two sets of people with faith -- theists, and secular humanists like cofty here. Secular humanism requires faith too. True agnostics are somewhere in the middle of the divide, which either means that they're able to share more in common with both groups, or they're oddballs, more ostracized than anyone else because they are being rejected from the Certainty Club that many (most?) people belong to. Kind of like being in a room with a lot of die-hard liberals and conservatives and when they ask who you voted for, admitting that you don't vote. Cold stares....
• 

  LisaRose

  Yes, Aggonophos I remember the teaching that the memory would be wiped, but that doesn't make it OK for me. If you had to watch your child be tortured, for many months, over and over, would it them be OK that they didn't remember it it later? I don't think so. The pain, in that moment, would be just as bad.

  I don't label myself as one thing or another, I don't see the need for it, and the moment you do someone is going to start telling you why you aren't a "real" Athiest, agnostic or whatever, or believers start telling you what they think you believe. There are Athiests here who tell Christians they aren't doing Christianity right. I am not interested in arguing with others over what label I should be. I am used to being the oddball in any group, I wasn't a very good Jehovah's Witness either.
• 

  snare&racket

  Cofty.... you are totally pushing for the 100 ha ha ha..

  the horse is truly flogged and passed on quite some time ago... But I'm behind ya 100% chief!

  Come.on christian people, just two more pages of silly illustrations....
• 

  cofty

  Lisa Rose - Thank you for your comments.

  though the divide is between two sets of people with faith -- theists, and secular humanists like cofty here. Secular humanism requires faith too. - Apog

  I have no faith. My beliefs are commensurate with the evidence.

  I do appreciate your input regarding JW theodicy. It would be good for us to look at it more closely. Specifically their belief that god arranged for thousands of years of human suffering in order to prove he isn't pointless. Russell used to teach that god intended the "Fall" before he began creating. Rutherford changed that and now they believe that god chose not to know what would happen. Any references on current JW theodicy would be useful.

  Snare - haha I think we might just make it.