by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences
Of course, any summary would be incomplete. But is it wrong? It's also pretty good evidence that flamgegrilled's comments have not been misrepresented, all protestations to the contrary.
Cofty, I am thoroughly enjoying Haidt's book, which explains the entrenchment we are seeing on this thread. Intuition and judgement comes first, while reasoning is used chiefly to persuade others to our established position. I hear you, LisaRose, and the middle road is indeed lonely ground.
Here is the official doctrine from JW.org... (edited for brevity)
My ony interest in this thread is in addressing this theodicy as it relates to natural evil.
The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil... That is one reason why there is so much suffering.
A second reason why there is so much suffering is that... mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering.
A third reason for suffering is “time and unforeseen occurrence.” In a world without Jehovah as a protective Ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Satan questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that Jehovah is a bad ruler... Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty, his right to rule... getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding Jehovah’s right to rule.
(Illustration of a teacher and a smart arse pupil who thinks he knows better)
Millions of angels were watching.... How Jehovah handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation. So, what has Jehovah done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance... Jehovah knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves.
Why, though, has Jehovah allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening? ... In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure... Second, Jehovah has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If Jehovah were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie.
..the ruining of our planet will be undone by the turning of the earth into Paradise. The effects of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and the effects of death will be reversed by means of the resurrection
Everlasting?Who's going to replenish the sun when it eventually loses its potency to keep the earth comfortable for habitation .? This question is for those who adhere to the living in paradise on earth forever ilk. Is god going to be shovelling billions of tons of physical material into it to keep it going the earth wouldn't even survive that scenario.
For those that think they are all going to be in heaven to help god/jesus to rule the earth where are you moving to once the sun and earth and solar system is no more ? Perhaps to some other planet where there are some more miserable sinners to be saved. Wake up!!! You theists / deists you are all thoroughly deceived/ deluded you can have a fulfilled loving happy life without that non....sense.My humble opinion of course..
Cofty, I am thoroughly enjoying Haidt's book, which explains the entrenchment we are seeing on this thread. Intuition and judgement comes first, while reasoning is used chiefly to persuade others to our established position.
Haidt's book sounds interesting...
Jgnat - From your perspective do you think there is an equal lack of objective reasoning on both sides of the issue - remembering the issue is not the existence of a god, but only the sufficiency of christian theism?
I think those dedicated to reason have a strict code of behavior, and those who violate it are uniformly held in contempt. Play in the sandbox by our rules or you can't play with us. Heck, I'm annoyed no end when a theist, operating from a completely different code, barge in and think their arguments have equal weight. Faith assumes their triumph, because the reasoners/athiests are "obviously" playing for the wrong side.
Contempt, now, that's not coming from reason. It's intuitive, it's visceral, and very difficult to overcome.
Contempt, now, that's not coming from reason. It's intuitive, it's visceral, and very difficult to overcome
I agree.
Cofty, lol, for a while now I've felt we've been circling each other like veteran sparring partners. I doubt that many would notice that we do carry differences of opinion. I sense, however, that differences aside, we would approach a debate with mutual respect.
Jgnat - Where did you find that picture? I reckon she is about to kick his butt.
It grieves me when people on the atheist side of any debate fail to take challenges on board and deal with them honestly. You can't just dismiss bad arguments with contempt.
When any of my teams play football agaisnt poor opposition I always remind them not to drop the standard of their game. The standard of apologetics from the christian theist side has been disappointing but that doesn't mean the responses shouldn't be solid. When I say to believers that I don't want to be wrong any longer than necessary I really mean it.
I hate discussions that generate more heat than light, but I think there has actually been a lot of both in this thread.
Cofty.... you are totally pushing for the 100 ha ha ha..-snare
Hmmm yes I thought the same a few pages ago, especially with the long summaries, everyone is repeating themselves now. Kate xx
Kate - The last time I posted a summary was 24 pages ago...
The problem has been FG spending 50 pages finding multiple ways of saying "its a mystery" and refusing to answer any questions. Then we had Adam who did his best to derail the thread by talking about Adam.
We still haven't properly addressed the Watchtower's theodicy which is a bit remiss on an ex-JW forum.
