The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

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  Simon

  During the gruelling job summarizing flamegrilled's argument, I found it took about ten pages for him to run out of steam along a particular argument line.

  No one ran out of steam.

  This is a common technique that theists use. They will abandon a line of their argument when it's clearly been debunked and then once they think it's been forgotten they will resurrect it and insist that you argue it all over again.

  The only reason theists arguments go on and on is they refuse to accept things and be pinned down, they simply jump to some other point. As such there really isn't a theist belief but a muddled cloud of snippets that they pick from as convenient even though the snippets often contradict each other.

  Remember: it's a mystery.
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  Simon

  I got to page 100 first - do I win a prize?
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  DATA-DOG

  If you had a normal human capacity for knowledge, but had Superman's powers, would you have saved the victims of the tsunami?? Infinite knowledge is not required to save people, but it is a plus.
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  flamegrilled

  Pretending there are things we don't or can't know for an absolute certainty is just playing silly word games. Cofty

  This is one of the more ridiculous and illogical statements so far.

  To acknowledge that there are things we don't know is an act of wisdom, prudence, and frankly is the first step toward being able to understand anything at all. To say otherwise would demonstrate gross hubris and stupidity. No scientist would ever discover anything if they took such a position.

  To acknowledge that there may be things we can't know is a slightly different thing. But an assertion that that there is no such category of knowledge* clearly cannot be substantiated. If such a thing as a multiverse exists, we would by definition not be able to have knowledge of it. But are you going to say that it is therefore logically impossible? You would find it difficult to obtain support for such a position amongst intelligent company I venture.

  These statements are not "silly word games" Cofty. Neither is it "pretend". This is reality my friend, and unless you acknowledge that you will continue with your illogical conclusions.

  [*Knowledge in this case would have to be defined simply as "that which can be known by at least one being", since if we limit it to "that which can be known by humans in our universe" then of course there would be nothing that fits the second category.]
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  Simon

  OK, the "I don't know" answer is really just a restatement that God knows more than we do. It is not really a direct answer to the question which would have to look something like "logically if I had access to the same information as the all loving omniscient God and if I was going to act in the long-term interests of all humanity then I would act the same way as he did". Therefore the answer is NO. But the answer would not be NO without that additional knowledge. The answer for me would be YES, but that would miss the point of the question which was framed "if you had the powers that God had".

  You are confusing not knowing anything with someone else knowing more. They are not the same thing at all.

  We know for certain that 250k people being killed in terror and pain is a bad thing. There is no mystery there and nothing else can make it good without contradicting your own beliefs in what good and evil are defined as.

  You're answer really should be "I have no clue" to pretty much everything. Admit that you can't defend or explain your faith and be done.

  That is the definition of faith after all - if you could logically explain your faith and prove it then you wouldn't have it.
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  flamegrilled

  Again, the old stalwart of theist arguments - trying to make out that it's all unknown and so 50/50. Simon

  Not at all. I am not in any way of the mind that it is 50/50. I believe that Cofty is plain wrong. However I am not going to assert that there is logical certainty that he is wrong. This is the line that can either be crossed or it cannot.
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  flamegrilled

  I got to page 100 first - do I win a prize? Simon

  Yes, but you have to provide it and award it too :)
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  flamegrilled

  The only reason theists arguments go on and on is they refuse to accept things and be pinned down, they simply jump to some other point.

  Some might, but I don't think I have done that at any point in the discussion. In fact I have been careful to stick to the point, despite many invitations to go off on a tangent.
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  flamegrilled

  If you had a normal human capacity for knowledge, but had Superman's powers, would you have saved the victims of the tsunami?? Infinite knowledge is not required to save people, but it is a plus. DATA-DOG

  Yes. (Of course)
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  cofty

  Your challlenge remains unanswered despite 50 pages of evasion.

  Explain how drowning a quarter of a million innocent people can ever be a perfect act of love?

  Everything you have said is bullshit until you give a direct answer that diesn' amount to "its a mystery"..