The President addresses the Nation

by designs 257 Replies latest social current

  • confusedandalone
    confusedandalone
    Would you attribute that to hard work and attitude, random chance (e.g. possibly fortuitous location) or something else?

    ------ I would attribute that to all the above, yet to which degree each one of those things plays a factor varies according to each individual who is successful. I have seen many get lucky. I have seen some work hard to get there. I have also seen many who for most of their lives worked very hard but were knocked down because of their race and could never get ahead.

    The difficulty many have getting their heads round things is why do African Americans seem to be so different? There are other groups have had serious persecution and also been victims of slavery but who have since prospered (e.g. Jews, Chinese, Irish as already mentioned).

    ------ This one for me is easy to understand. As I mentioned in my previous post, with African Americans they were told that they were apes. It was law that they were not complete humans. They were seperated from their families. Lost their language and were not allowed to read and write. When you have a system that for 300 years taught you and provided false "scientific proof" that you were merely one step up from an animal you will probably believe that. That feeling of infiriority can't be combatted because you can not read. You mother tells you the same thing because its what she is taught. There are no people of your skin color that are allowed to do these things. You have no history. Asians and Irish and Jews had a history that they carried with them. If they didn't have it then there was another IRISH guy who did. They all spoke the same language. Same with most Asians, they had a past. With Africans that was wiped away when they were seperated from their families. They lost languages and cultures and history and background. Without those things you are whatever others tell you that you are.

    I read a comment somewhere that suggested the groups that had improved typically had no leaders that you could name whereas the black community has a lot of well know, infamous, leaders who don't seem to have done much to actually advance people's well-being.

    --- Well I am no fan of Jesse or AL. More a fan of thier predecessors - but no need to elaborate on that. They tend to make huge deals out of things that are reminiscent of what was taking place in their error. Little are they aware that things have changed and so has the face of racism and inequality. In their era racism was out there and visible and it was accepted. Now it's not as accepted by the general population as MUCH. SO they think every crime committed against a minority is laced with prejudice because in thier era that was generally the case. Now the racism is in the board rooms more often then not, and in areas that the public light can not shine as easily.

    Is it bad leadership? I have to say whenever I hear Sharpton or Crump talk I do not feel compelled to help or even hope that someone else helps.

    ------ Al and Crump are not the leaders of Black America. Black America no longer needs a leader like it once did. What it needs is for others to get rid of their stereotpes and let each individual AA prove who they are and not be lumped in with a group. The ones generally looking for a leader are the ones who are lost. Just like those in the White community who are looking for leaders are generally the weakest minded of that group. Blacks / AA's are now ready to do what is necessary to move ahead - they just do not need stereotypes of years past following them. Treat them as individuals.

    Is the leadership irrelevant? I have a hard time believing that good or bad leadership of any group makes no difference.

    ---- see above

    Is it the culture? Has crime and violence taken over and 'become' a way of life for a critical mass so that it's the norm?

    --- Not specific to AA culture. The culture of America is one of violence / ignorance / and poverty. It is prominent in the lower class and urbanized areas because that is where the poor people are. That is the case anywhere. The problem is the pporest of America are the people of color due to things mentioned above. However strides to improve are there and many are getting on the bus.

    Why do people live one life over another? Some obviously don't get much of a choice but I think many do and simply make poor choices.
    Why?

    --- This is one aspect where I have to say you are wrong (in my opinion), or maybe its a misunderstanding. There is still a very strong belief that AA's are worthless and they are not capable of achieving and not capable of anything positive by those with power. That ideology is passed on in the schools and in work environments as well so those ideas stick with many and never go away. When you are a kid of 6 to 10 and everyday all you see are poor people. All you get of your past is that you were a slave. People in authority tell you that you are less than others or that you can't achieve - you begin to believe that. Others hear these things and fight against it, but they are not able to achieve because others hold them back who have the ability to help them advance.

    I once worked as a Software Engineer for one of the largest accounting firms in the US. I sat in this positiion for 6 years until I finally quit to start my own business because all those around me advanced and not me, when I knew I was smarter than those who were advancing. Well 3 years after leaving my ex-boss who was Irish contacted me on Facebook and wanted to meet up. He apologized and admitted that he didn't promote me because of the negative stereotypes of MY PEOPLE and that he thought if I was in that position I MAY NOT take it seriously... he apologized. I accepted it. Yet I also realized that this instance probably isn't very uncommon. I personally used that setback as a catalyust to improve however you can surely understand how others could be hindered by that, all the while thinking I will never get ahead because I am being held back. In some instances they are - in others they are not. So it is easy to see why some go the route they do while others keep pressing forward

  • designs
    designs

    Explains why Irish resentment of England stays strong. Do the Irish and Ireland feel the past is something irrelevant and shouldn't be discussed.

  • confusedandalone
    confusedandalone

    The irish were also treated horribly. No question about it. However there is a point at which they can mix with those in power through marriage or a name change. With that intermingling comes a new beginning for their loved ones. New opportunities that allow them to be a part of a society that would accept them as long as that past was repressed. If you are black or Native American you can't hide that as well.... you still have a stigma that you are a step higher than an ape. You still are immediately viewed as a slave.

    For instance you can be irish and change your name to Paul Rockefeller(sp). You can mix in with the brits etc... if you are smart.

    On the other hand, if you are black or Native North / South American and change your name to Paul Rockefeller(sp). You are still a person of color... the color used by the majority as slaves and who is viewed as a lower caste of human.

  • Violia
    Violia

    Folks around here can spot a poor white or whites that have mixed with other races and unless you are a rock star or athlete or highly skilled , you are looked down on. It is not that easy to move out of your social class unless you are very smart and have some wanted skills. Even if you make a good living, your profession gives away your social status here.

  • glenster
    glenster

    Zimmerman’s brother responds: Obama’s statement reinforced ‘mythology surround-
    ing the case’

    While he disagreed with Obama’s characterization of some of the facts of the
    case, he agreed that much work needs to be done to improve the lot of black youth
    across the country.

    President Obama said in the press conference, “When Trayvon Martin was first
    shot, I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is
    Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago.”

    The President said that the nation must address the problems faced by young
    black males.

    “We need to spend some time in thinking about how do we bolster and reinforce
    our African-American boys,” he said, adding that he and First Lady Michelle Obama
    often discuss the issue.

    Zimmerman Jr. told TheDC that his brother was doing exactly what the president
    suggested well before he encountered Trayvon Martin in February 2012.

    “George is a Hispanic man who was mentoring two African American children be-
    fore the incident,” Zimmerman recalled. He told The DC that the father of those
    children is serving a life sentence in prison. “It goes without saying that Afri-
    can Americans are overrepresented in the criminal justice system, and I think
    George was trying to break that cycle.”

    “I can’t think of a better way to encourage children than to take the time to
    show them that they matter as people and, more importantly to society at large,”
    than engaging in mentoring roles, said Zimmerman Jr.

    The President acknowledged that Florida’s Stand Your Ground law did not neces-
    sarily apply in the Zimmerman case, but he addressed Stand Your Ground laws in
    his unscripted remarks.

    “And for those who resist that idea that we should think about something like
    these ‘Stand Your Ground’ laws, I just ask people to consider, if Trayvon Martin
    was of age and armed, could he have stood his ground on that sidewalk?”

    Zimmerman Jr. told TheDC that “the scenario [the President] laid out was am-
    biguous.”

    Florida governor Rick Scott, a Republican, held a prayer vigil on Thursday with
    a group called the Dream Defenders. That group hopes to get Stand Your Ground
    repealed, but Scott has said that he has no plans to repeal the law.
    http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/19/zimmermans-brother-responds-obamas-statement-only-reinforced-mythology-surrounding-the-case/

    One objection may be Obama implying that the GZ/TM case was one of TM, an Afri-
    can American showing good behavior so a non-African-American hassling them sug-
    gests implicit racism. We don't have a nice guy and a bad guy with those two--we
    have two not so nice guys, with the African American being territorial about hav-
    ing a phone call on someone else's property at night in the rain and an off duty
    Neighborhood Watch guy who made a nominal look for his whereabouts beyond report-
    ing it from a truck. Either of them has said something insensitive about someone
    of another ethnicity or shoved someone at the least, TM more recently, and kneel-
    ing to pin someone's arms down while beating them in the head is sadistic--not a
    good promo photo for Skittles.

    The prosecuter wants to get GZ on the stand and find difficulties in GZ's test-
    imony, but there are several problems with that:

    1. I have to tilt my head and say, "Huh?" about some of the things both GZ and
    Jeantel said.

    2. The prosecuter said some such things, like forced points, during the trial.
    His south to north chase idea would add to them.

    If TM was confronted by GZ at TM's father's house, he was home. Why didn't he
    just pull out the ID from his wallet or knock on the door to get someone inside
    to identify him?

    None of the witnesses said they heard TM or GZ south of the shooting scene,
    and Jeantel may have misunderstood where TM was during her phone call.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Zimmerman#Witness_accounts

    Imagining GZ pulling out his gun to scare TM by TM's father's house at the
    south end of the block just leaves us with a couple more "I don't know"s we can't
    decide with. Did GZ, unprovoked, scare TM with his gun or did TM provoke GZ till
    GZ pulled his gun on TM? Did GZ chase with his gun drawn or run after TM tried
    to disarm him? The fight up north seems unlikely either way--either TM would
    keep running or disarm GZ before making a fistfight of it.

    You still end up with TM on GZ, kneeling on GZ's arms and punching his head,
    except while leaving the gun in GZ's right hand. But there's a biological reason
    to doubt that was the scenario: wrists bend. If it's imagined anyway, GZ's de-
    fense claim is still credible except he took a longer beating with his gun drawn
    before using it, still not wanting to risk TM would grab it and use it on him.

    Prosecution would still need to show that worse happened beyond a reasonable
    doubt, and the south to north chase is doubtful as a way to contest it.

  • Simon
    Simon
    Al and Crump are not the leaders of Black America. Black America no longer needs a leader like it once did. What it needs is for others to get rid of their stereotpes and let each individual AA prove who they are and not be lumped in with a group. The ones generally looking for a leader are the ones who are lost. Just like those in the White community who are looking for leaders are generally the weakest minded of that group. Blacks / AA's are now ready to do what is necessary to move ahead - they just do not need stereotypes of years past following them. Treat them as individuals.

    Forgive me thinking they were - they are often described as such and when they show up every time and are treated as though they represent people then that is the impression we are left with. Sharpton seems to have been very critical of people suggesting upbringing plays a factor (both Cosby and Obama) which makes it appear that he's comfortable assuming the mantle of spokeperson.

    I don't hear any black people saying he's an idiot and should keep his mouth shut so assume people agree with his viewpoint.

    I think people like him reinforce the steryotype of "the angry black man who blames whites for everything".

    Explains why Irish resentment of England stays strong. Do the Irish and Ireland feel the past is something irrelevant and shouldn't be discussed.

    Yes, there was a lot of bad feeling and it caused unrest, fighting and killing. The ones determined to live in the past and keep the hatred alive were eventually marginalised and the violence ended and we moved on. No one forgot about their past to do it, we just didn't dwell in it.

  • Simon
    Simon

    The Irish didn't need to change their name or disappear - they took over the world by opening Irish Theme pubs and convert everyone every St Paddys day !

  • Simon
    Simon

    I do find it slightly bizarre how everyone is all over the stand-your-ground law that wasn't even a factor in the case.

    "Yes sir, it's an outrage that your son was stopped for speeding but don't worry, we've now outlawed blue cars"

    Perhaps it's intentional because it's the only thing they are going to be able to declare "victory" as 'something accomplished'.

    When it's gone then "fewer African Americans will get away with shooting people" ... oh dear, what a quandry !

  • Prime
    Prime

    Whether "the people" are ignorant of the law or just don't care, president Obama knows the people protesting this case are trying to get the government to break its own laws. That's exactly what would be the case if the government charged Zimmerman with a hate crime.

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon

    The president used the term "peace and security" in his speech.

    I'm sure my mom is dancing in her house about how the end is near.

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