New Pope about to come out

by new22day 303 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  still thinking

  Regardless of whether the death of Kim Jong-il should be celebrated or not (should we ever celebrate death?), there have been some odd reactions to it, and mostly from religious people trying to prove a point about atheists. It would be true to say that Kim Jong-il was an atheist, in that he didn’t believe in god, and he promoted this disbelief to all the people of North Korea, but it was not his atheism that had caused North Korea to be locked off from the rest of the world, rather the whole system of his governance is to blame. In fact it would be true to say that Jong-il has replaced religion with something far more damaging; the deification of himself and his father, Kim Il-sung (surprisingly Kim Il-sung was declared the Eternal President after his death in 1994, and is therefore still leader of the country.) This legacy is so strong that the people of Korea are basically forced with their every working hour to work for the better glorification of Kim Jong-il and his father. They have become “gods on earth” and their people worship them much as any theist might worship their god or gods.

  Sam Harris is famously quoted as saying the following about the subject:

  The problem with Fascism and communism was not that they were too critical of religion. The problem is they’re too much like religions; these are utterly dogmatic systems of thought. I recently had a debate with Rick Warren in the pages of Newsweek, and he suggested that North Korea was a model atheist society and that any atheist with the courage of his convictions should want to move there. The truth is North Korea is organized exactly like a faith based cult, centered on the worship of Kim Jong-il. The North Koreans apparently believe that the shipments of food aid that they receive from us, to keep them from starving to death, are actually devotional offerings to Kim Jong-il.

  http://martinspribble.com/archives/1914
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  And still today....

  The catholic church & the GB promote women being second class citizens.

  The governing body carries that over to every aspect of a woman's life. The Catholic Church doesn't. They don't allow women priests and they do wish that women did not use contraception, unless it's the cycle method. But relatively few RC women adhere to the ban on contraception and they are not penalized for it.

  The catholic church & the GB cover up child molesting (fortunately people have fought them both and continue to do so)

  As we've pointed out, this cover up goes on in many organizations. It's a human problem. The RC doesn't deny that child molestation is going on. The GB does.

  The catholic church & the GB promote hatred of homosexuals

  The catholic church and the GB do not promote hatred of homosexuals. They do teach that homosexuality is a sin. I don't agree that its a sin.

  The history of the governing body only goes back over a hundred years. When you go back through the history of the RC church, again, you have to take it back into times when the governments and church were pretty much melded together. Governments aren't naive about using religion to control people or as a front for murder and war. When I was a teenager, long before I ever heard of JWs, I was swayed away from organized religion by the bloody history of the RC church and other churches. Now that I'm an adult and know more about history, I understand it's not as simple as blaming just the ancient church. You have to look at the relationship between church and state and how they both used each other to excersize influence and control over the masses. It was a sick relationship, which is why the church and state are supposed to separated under the American Constitution.

  You can use the ancient RC church as a comparison to today's JWs, but it's more relevant to compare them today. Today is what we live with.
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  The problem with Fascism and communism was not that they were too critical of religion. The problem is they’re too much like religions;

  these are utterly dogmatic systems of thought

  Which is a super good point. You don't need religion to mistreat whole nations. All you need is people and power. To be fair, we have to acknowledge that under Kim, there was still a ban on religion. And he demonstrated that you can dominate and manipulate people just as effectively without it. It's interesting that in China, people go underground to have their churches.
• 

  Sulla

  Still thinking, happy in the warm bath of bigotry and ignorance. Good to see the personal growth since leaving the JWs.
• 

  still thinking

  It's a human problem

  Churches and religions are human institutions...the buck stops with them and their leaders.

  The catholic church and the GB do not promote hatred of homosexuals. They do teach that homosexuality is a sin. I don't agree that its a sin.

  That is a contradiction....and the fact that you don't agree that it is a sin is irrelevant to what they believe.

  Homosexuality is NOT a sin...that belief is hateful and deserves NO respect...and any religion that holds that belief is also hateful and deserves NO respect.
• 

  still thinking

  Good to see the personal growth since leaving the JWs

  Thanks I too am glad I don't hold any bigotted religious ideas, like homosexuality is a sin.
• 

  Sulla

  I too am glad I don't hold any bigotted religious ideas, like homosexuality is a sin.

  This is what I mean when I say you are an ignorant bigot. The Church does not teach that homosexuality is a sin, yet you are ignorant about that fact. You repeat your ignorance because you are a bigot. QED.
• 

  new22day

  Still Thinking -- "neither of those organisations deserve any respect for their backward thinking."

  And on this point I agree with you. However, both orgs exist today, so one can hope for two things 1) they disapear 2) they reform. Time will tell.

  (I'll do better research on Hitchens. He definitley hated Islam and I believe he was very anti-semitic as well. 'Hate' was a regular theme in his biting journalist style.)

  I like this quote from Hitchen's colleague Stephen Prothero: "The problem with Hitchens’ writing on religion is that he did what many preachers do; he let his emotions get the best of him, and then he started preaching to the choir. In the process, he helped to lead a whole generation of New Atheists down a rabbit hole of their own imagining. Inside that fantasy world, the atheists are always the smartest boys in the class, and around every corner there is a new religious sin to sneer and chuckle at. In the real world, there are millions of intelligent Christians and Muslims, Hindus and Jews sneering and chuckling at precisely the same stuff. The criticism of religion begins, believe it or not, with embarrassment in the pews."
• 

  still thinking

  Thanks you for your judgement and opinion of me sulla.... Did you mean to say that to me of FHN, because I was quoting her when she said.."they teach that homosexulity is a sin"...LOL

  Now...lets have a look at your new popes idea about children raised by homosexuals.

  • He claims that adoption by homosexuals is a form of discrimination against children

  Now why would that be? Do homosexuals not make good parents? Are they neglectful? Less loving? Why?
• 

  still thinking

  In the real world, there are millions of intelligent Christians and Muslims, Hindus and Jews sneering and chuckling at precisely the same stuff.

  New22day...I totally agree with that. One has to wonder why they continue to support these religions though doesn't one? With Islam it's understandable...fear silences many and keeps thim under heavy handed control. But for Catholics...whats their excuse?

  I also recommend Daniel Dennets writings on 'belief in belief'. Interesting stuff...very much related to how some intelligent believers continue to support these religions...not the only reason of course. But one of many possible reasons.

  Of course Hitchens adds his own flavour to his writings...as does every other writer. It doesn't mean I agree with everything he has to say. In fact, many discussions between atheists are interesting because they don't agree with each other. But valid points are made on all sides, whether you agree with them or not. The discussion I mentioned between Hitch, Dawkins, Harris and Dennet does just that. They don't all agree on everything...just most things...LOL

  But it is important not to misrepresent what they say and give it a different meaning altogether.

  Stating he was a holocaust denier simply is not true...and I would suggest that calling him anti-semetic is quite a leap out of context as well.