If Jehovah Can Read Hearts Then WHY

by BlindersOff1 301 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Band on the Run

  Tammy,

  98 per cent of Christians believe in the Trinity. Christology should be front and center in any discussion of God and Christ. It would not be stoning offense, I believe, for someone to state that Jesus was an angel. No, something triggered Jews to clean out and even report early Christians to the Romans. The basic tenet of Judaism is that God is what humans are not. Stephen's stoning occurs early in Acts. James and Peter are still controlling Christianity from Jerusalem. Sadly, we have no idea what they believed. James evidently thought Jesus was very irresponsible while he was alive.

  I believe the hints of the Trinity occur in Acts and Paul's letters more than in the gospels.

  Excuse my Ivy League education but I was taught and priests endorsed this view that no statement by Jesus that he is God exists in the Gospels. If I thought being God were crucial, I would mention it. I would probably do a Powerpoint presentataion with flow charts and art work. Both the Trinity and nonTrinity views of Jesus are extrapolitions of scriputre. No scripture exists where Jesus says he is not God.

  Since the Jews would find Jesus being God utter blashphemy, I do not think that Jesus or his apostles believed he was God. This seems to happen as a result of the Holy Spirit or Greek cultural influences. The credal prayers in Paul's letter come very close to express formulation of Trinity. Of course, Paul argues against Christian authority of the time that his experience of Christ Resurrected was as important as knowing Jesus in the flesh. So Paul need not follow Jesus' sayings. When Paul writes, the gospels are not canonized. Jesus' sayings, without narrative, probably were available.

  So here is the difference. I admit the Trinity is an extrapolation. I personally read all the relevant scriptures in context and decided that the Trinity view makes more sense for a religion to last. Discussions with priests further reassure me about the Trinity. Any Episcopal priest willing to die for the Trinity is rare. Some parishoners were upset when I mentioned in church that there was no scriptural basis either way. They thought I would be reprimanded. The priest agreed with me wholeheartedly. She said that we can only view the Trinity as a way to come to terms with the fact that all religions have members who experience God in different ways. It is a method of describing the various ways God acts in our lives.

  So no one has to die for believing in the Trinity or not the Trinity. The belief that Jesus is/was an angel is contradictory to almost every single Christian denomination.

  Of course, Elohim explained this to me. He speaks to me. I hear his voice oh so clearly. This forum often seems like a waste of time. Now that Elohim's primary messenger has been revealed, I am changing beliefs.

  I wonder what I believe if I were stripped of culture. Would I even be European? YHWH is a very Middle Eastern God. Perhaps I would be a Druid. It just seems that God should not be depend on political and economic forces.
• 

  Band on the Run

  Tammy,

  98 per cent of Christians believe in the Trinity. Christology should be front and center in any discussion of God and Christ. It would not be stoning offense, I believe, for someone to state that Jesus was an angel. No, something triggered Jews to clean out and even report early Christians to the Romans. The basic tenet of Judaism is that God is what humans are not. Stephen's stoning occurs early in Acts. James and Peter are still controlling Christianity from Jerusalem. Sadly, we have no idea what they believed. James evidently thought Jesus was very irresponsible while he was alive.

  I believe the hints of the Trinity occur in Acts and Paul's letters more than in the gospels.

  Excuse my Ivy League education but I was taught and priests endorsed this view that no statement by Jesus that he is God exists in the Gospels. If I thought being God were crucial, I would mention it. I would probably do a Powerpoint presentataion with flow charts and art work. Both the Trinity and nonTrinity views of Jesus are extrapolitions of scriputre. No scripture exists where Jesus says he is not God.

  Since the Jews would find Jesus being God utter blashphemy, I do not think that Jesus or his apostles believed he was God. This seems to happen as a result of the Holy Spirit or Greek cultural influences. The credal prayers in Paul's letter come very close to express formulation of Trinity. Of course, Paul argues against Christian authority of the time that his experience of Christ Resurrected was as important as knowing Jesus in the flesh. So Paul need not follow Jesus' sayings. When Paul writes, the gospels are not canonized. Jesus' sayings, without narrative, probably were available.

  So here is the difference. I admit the Trinity is an extrapolation. I personally read all the relevant scriptures in context and decided that the Trinity view makes more sense for a religion to last. Discussions with priests further reassure me about the Trinity. Any Episcopal priest willing to die for the Trinity is rare. Some parishoners were upset when I mentioned in church that there was no scriptural basis either way. They thought I would be reprimanded. The priest agreed with me wholeheartedly. She said that we can only view the Trinity as a way to come to terms with the fact that all religions have members who experience God in different ways. It is a method of describing the various ways God acts in our lives.

  So no one has to die for believing in the Trinity or not the Trinity. The belief that Jesus is/was an angel is contradictory to almost every single Christian denomination.

  Of course, Elohim explained this to me. He speaks to me. I hear his voice oh so clearly. This forum often seems like a waste of time. Now that Elohim's primary messenger has been revealed, I am changing beliefs.

  I wonder what I believe if I were stripped of culture. Would I even be European? YHWH is a very Middle Eastern God. Perhaps I would be a Druid. It just seems that God should not be depend on political and economic forces.
• 

  AGuest

  Since I am a drug fiend, your recent admission that you have Type 1 diabetes and take insulin makes you a drug fiend.

  Well, I didn't know... or have I ever said you were a "drug fiend"... and I think, by definition, a "fiend" is one that "craves" drugs, but can live without them. I don't grave insulin (trust me, if I never had to take another shot...), but I can't live without it. Bit of a difference. Not that I am saying... or even think... you ARE a fiend. But if you don't want me to comment on the... mmmmmm... state of YOUR mind when you post, then perhaps you should consider refraining on what you THINK is mine when I post.

  Well, relax, if you are a drug fiend and I am a drug fiend, you are in wonderful company. Just think my Ivy League education may rub off on you b/c I am so wondrous. I am also tall, with long legs, and blonde. My eyes are green. People have said that I look like Grace Kelley and Olivia de Haviland's sister. Also, I frequent high end hair salons and get manicures. My brows are arched so perfectly. I take multivitamins.

  Ummmm... glad to know all of that... I think. I mean, I don't swing "that way," so your physical attributes don't really do a THING for ME (actually, wouldn't even if I did - I am not really interested in the outward appearance but more about what's on the inside).

  Let me reveal a very pertinent manner. I am Cinderella. It is completely true that I grew up in Northern Jersey and attended Tony Soprano's high school. Yes, I grew up with women who dressed that way. The local joke is that my high school holds its reunion in the federal pens. I do know actual Mafioso. Since I am not Italian myself, they would not aid me in any small matter. But someone bothering me onthe Internet, watch out..................................

  First, someone "bothering" you?? Second... oooohhhh... you just threatened me with "retaliation" from the Mafia (violation of Forum Rule 1) - what, should I start checking for a horse head when I go to bed? As far as your HS holding reunions in the federal pens... (smile)... I think the really scary cons in the STATE pens. I know, cause some of them are family. They consider your federal pen the "Bahamas". But don't worry - I would never tell them about you. I mean, seriously... you don't concern me THAT much... not even close. You don't even concern me enough to run to the moderators of this board.

  I don't run from bullies.

  Well, bullies usually don't run FROM bullies. It's their victims that usually. Bullies... usually hang out with other bullies. And no different here.

  I lived through four or five high school riots.

  (Somewhere in the background, black people who grew up during the 1960's applaud. Or hiss and boo... depends on what side you were on...)

  So puny people don't scare me.

  Evidently they do. I mean, if you, tall blonde that you are... feel you need to invoke your "Mafia connections" against someone, who is probably half your size in height... and more, in weight (I notice you didn't include that - not that it matters - it doesn't to ME, but the boyz might be interested - they're always commenting and posting pics about that kind of stuff...)

  Also, since I am so drug crazed......you all better watch out.

  Shakin' in my boots, girl, shakin' in my boots! I mean, I was SO scared when I was just in NYC that I kept looking over my shoulder! Shoot, I was ASCARED, yes ah wuz... that BOTR... or one of her mafioso friends wuz gwine come git me, yasshus ah wuz! Really. Ask dear Miz Shirley (peace, luv!). I was shaking SO hard I almost couldn't my lunch (that we were having at Rockefeller Center! Shoot, I was ascared that boogeyman BOTR wuz gonna jump me ANY minute!! My legs are shaking now just thinking about it!).

  I am willing to submit my posts to any neutral source and compare them to someone else's post. I have no doubt which way people would vote.

  And I should care which way people would vote because... why? Oh, that's right: because I'm supposed to care what people think about me. Sorry, I don't.

  Type I and taking insulin. OMG. Does Simon know? Pls, and we all know that Type Is such as Mary Tyler Moore drink, too.

  What?? So, because MTM is a Type I diabetic... and she drinks... that your basis for saying that Type I diabetics drink? Newsflash: Type II diabetics drink. Non-diabetics drink. Not sure what your point is. Even so, I'm willing to bet that MTM is more "important"... in the world... than you are... and will ever be. Maybe you get Type I diabetics... and drink, too. (WTFrick...??)

  This place is not high school. It is junior high school.

  Yet, here YOU still are. Trying your little heart out to play on the JV team. Go, little engine... go...

  Oh, excuse me, I am crankier than usual. Despite my flawless manicures, I Have a hang nail. You all watch out.

  Well, then, that explains it. At least you explained it. Now, whether it's plausible... or you're just being your "usual" self... that is the question...

  Come back, now. Oh, I can no longer look down on Honey Boo Boo or the Kardashian crowd b/c I am generating content to feed the beast.

  See, this is what I mean: not a very "lucid" comment.

  (BTW, anyone who watches Honey Boo Boo is morally bankrupt. That child is going to grow up one day and be a teenager, an age where young people already have enough stress and angst. She will attend high school and given her money... if there's any left by that time... probably college. And her peers are NOT going to be kind. She is a hoot, but that she, why... and how... is not funny. If that child ends up on drugs... or taking her own life at a young age... everyone who perpetuated that mess is culpable. It is one of THE saddest things I've ever come to know of in television. But now the Kardashians? Those are my girls!)

  Oh,no. Mr. Bill.

  Try to stay lucid, girl... try to stay lucid. You sometimes border on brilliant when you do. Sometimes.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  AGuest

  Correction: you're right, it was stored in the cities. And Joseph traveled around (hence, his chariot) "overseeing the distribution" of the grain. So, again, he would have been too busy to stop and make a sidetrip to you to try to stop you from yelling outside Pharaoh's door. No, easier for you to "Come to... him".

  But you still had to go to Joseph first:

  "When Jacob learned that there was grain in Egypt, he said to his sons, “Why do you just keep looking at each other?” He continued, “I have heard that there is grain in Egypt. Go down there and buy some for us, so that we may live and not die.” T hen ten of Joseph’s brothers went down to buy grain from Egypt. But Jacob did not send Benjamin, Joseph’s brother, with the others, because he was afraid that harm might come to him. So Israel’s sons were among those who went to buy grain, for there was famine in the land of Canaan also. Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the person who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down to him with their faces to the ground. As soon as Joseph saw his brothers, he recognized them, but he pretended to be a stranger and spoke harshly to them. “Where do you come from?” he asked". Genesis 42:1-7

  Even so, it was an EXAMPLE, meant to help YOU see... if you WANTED to. Of course, you did not, so...

  But, again, I ain't mad at'cha: you gotta do... and not do... what you gotta do... and I gotta do... and not do... what I gotta do.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA, who laughed at your impulsive response to the tall lady's self-description (I mean, of course - how ELSE would you have responded? LOLOL!)
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  But you still had to go to Joseph first:

  So, Joseph was traveling around and without the advent of high speed comminications they had to figure out where he was, get there and try to get an audience, all before they starved? Pure nonsense.

  Even so, it was an EXAMPLE, meant to help YOU see... if you WANTED to. Of course, you did not, so...

  Use a good example and we'll talk. Nonsense examples are picked apart and discarded.
• 

  tec

  Band, at least you admit that the trinity is extrapolation, so I assume that you would not mean it when you say that 'true' christians believe in the trinity. For me, if someone is looking at God through Christ... seeing God as Christ showed Him to be, looking at Christ to see and to know God... then, well, he who is not against you is for you. I tend to avoid trinity debates/arguments simply for the sake of doctrine; and also becasue there are various versions of the trinity doctrine out there. But you and I have touched on this before, I think, so in the interest of understanding, I will go there with you again.

  Here is where i would disagree with some of your reasoning on the trinity. You say that Christ did not state that He was not God. Well I don't go around stating things that I am not; not unless someone says are you 'such and such'. So unless somenone thought he was God, then why would He state I am not God? That being said... he does state all sorts of things that show that He is not His Father (and that His Father is God). To which another extrapolation is made: him having two natures, fully man and fully god. But that is formed to justify the first extrapolation, because there are holes in the first extrapolation without adding that justification. Christ said... "the Father is greater than I am". "Why do you call me good. No one is good but God." He prayed TO God. He asked God to forgive those who sinned against Him. He asked His Father if His Father would take away 'this cup'.

  However, if He is the Son... coming FROM God (His Father)... acting with the authority God (His Father) gave Him... then there is no extrapolation needed in the first place. It is... simple.

  As for why people wanted him dead or thought he was blasphemous: He did act with all the authority of God... speaking as the Word of God; as the Truth; as the Life (come to me to have life); as one who forgives sins. This would have been considered blasphemy among some if they thought he was NOT the Christ - and did not recognize Him; and more than that, He also had enemies among the religious leaders who he usurped and called out. Prophets were killed for saying things people did not want to hear. So I do not really think that is an issue at all.

  I do not, however, think that he was an angel. It is not Christ is God... or... Christ is an angel... or... Christ is merely a man. He is the SON of God; coming directly from God. Born, not created; and the perfect representation (image) of His Father. So made of the same stuff; having the essence of God within Him. A son. Not an adopted Son, but THE ONLY begotten Son. No angels in that; no humans either. He is unique.

  We can be adopted as sons.

  (Now I know that some say that the trinity is supposed to express this - same nature; same essence... not same being. I can see that. But that really just denotes the word 'god' to a specific species; but even this does not make the members of that species the same person.)

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  mP

  AGuest:

  Unfortunately, you are under a couple of misconceptions, dear mp (good morning and peace to you!). First, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH... of Armies... is not the "Jehovah", "Elohim," "Adonai," literally... or as depicted in the OT... and not necessarily the "Yahweh", "YHWH", or even "JHVH" depicted there. That "harsh" god is the one created by the falst prophets and false priests of Israel... in order to have some leverage over Israel's enemies. This is why Christ, whose God I serve, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... said OF those who "wrote" these things (not the Prophets but the scribes)... "WOE to you... scribes... hypocrites!" They changed SO many things, dear one, that Christ himself had to call them to task for it. And he wasn't just talking about the scribes of HIS day... because he all the way back to Cain with his condemnation (of their WORKS).

  etc etc

  MP:

  Ive read the entire text that you wrote but i am totally confused.

  Why you call God by his Jewish name Jehovah ?

  Its totally dishonest to refer make statemnts using this name, when everybody is thinking you are talking about the OT god who did and said lots of things there. You then turn about and say its all twisted, etc. You are presenting a new identity using a name associted with something completely different. Its down right misrepresentation and lible. If you have new ideas about "Jehovah" you should qualify your thoughts so everyone is clear this is not the God of the OT. AT the very least you should give him a new name.

  How do you know all these new things ?
• 

  mP

  AGuest:

  Well, I didn't know... or have I ever said you were a "drug fiend"... and

  mP:

  I am amazed that you take exception to a petty label being thrown, but somehow the alimighty setting an example of human sacrifice is well fine. How many other dmb fools copied Abrahams idea because well its in holy writings ? THrowing a label at yourself doesnt hurt you one little bit. You can awlk away without any scaring and whats even better than the poor sods who were victims of human sacrifice, you are alive.

  Imagine if God made a statement here and said HUman sacrifice is wrong at the very least Jepthahs daughter would have lived. There are of course other examples in the Bible, im just highlighting one which is undisputable.
• 

  mP

  AGuest:

  ow Joseph was the governor of the land, the person who sold grain to all its people . So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down to him

  mP:

  Given the hundreds of thousands of families in Egypt, how exactly does Joseph manage to listen and allocate grain to each and every one ? Even if he worked 24 hours a day 7 days a week, he would never have scene more than a tiny fraction of them. This is the same nonsense as the Solomon story where its claimed he litens and solves problems of his subjects. Have you ever tried to contact your local representative ? Most have a terrority with barely 30,000 or so (well its like that here) and its next to impossible to get a one on one meeting with them. How SOlomon managed to find the time for a country with at least a few million is one of lifes great stories.
• 

  punkofnice

  If Jehovah(TM) were that great (if he even exists?), then he's a bigger idiot than I gave him credit for.

  A simple question cannot be answered from a 'scriptural' point of view without loads of conjecture over words and concepts. What a load of tosh!

  If Jehovah(TM) were that smart he wouldn't have allowed this scenario in the first place....and even if that stupid imaginagry bloodthirsty turd in the sky DID allow this, then the answer to the simple question 'If Jehovah Can Read Hearts Then WHY.....?' would be answered beyond the shadow of a doubt in the bible in plain language. God wouldn't keep leaving these unanswered questions that are up for debate.